Diane,
We did meet and I am going back a few years though. THe reason I remember you is because I was scared after leaving your training grounds. The way in which you trained was intresting to say the least. This was not just my opion but the opion of people at the Broward Schutzhund club also. Whne they found out that I went to you, they laugh after hearing my story and said "What did you expect, its Dianne". By the way this is where we met. You then told me about how you were into French Ring also, and how much harder and exciting it was then Schutzhund. I then accepted the invite to your "French Ring Club" that I now now was not a real formal club, as you stated.
The only reason I give this back-ground info on you is you made claims that Schutzhund was "Childs Play" and the impression you gave was one that I took as, you were the only person able to say this because You competed in KNPV.
Since you gave the other readers your "Resume" I thought they would like to hear from someone that has seen you.
I am really not going to loose sleep knowing now that you do not remember me.
The fact still remains that they are mostly '"Prey Dogs" despite what you say.

Originally posted by Ed Frawley:
This topic's thread is for KNPV - thats why I am talking about it.

Many many Mals have intense prey drve and weak nerves. This is something that new trainers often do not understand.

I just finished editing a Police K9 training video on teaching service dogs search buildings. In this tape I have a short section on using the right dog for the work.

I chose a Mal that I showed taking a helper (in a body suite) to the ground in running bite. From that bite the dog was taken into a building tile floors. The dog froze up on slippery floors. The dog was walking on his toe nails - he would not bite.

There are alot of nice Mals, there are just as many with good prey and nerv problems. So do not confuse prey and working ability.

This thread has been very interesting indeed. I have one of those KNPV prey dogs, and yes, she would make it to the top no problem and she will do great in Schutzhund, SAR and most other sports that require such high prey to achieve performance obediance. Her prey is immensly high showing itself at 6 weeks of age and continuing stronger with each month of her life.
Yet, will she protect when the real chips are down with a strong threat against her, I can only hope so with futher training in protection work for real life threats. Do I expect she is genetically inclined to achieve this level of confidence, YES. If this was a young male my friend had, NO. Her dog will never ever be able to do any real work. He is high prey, but low nerved and NO fight what so ever.
For god's sake, he looks like he would, I mean he grabs pants and shirts, he chases dogs around and latches on to their fur to play, but he cannot walk 10 feet in confidence and shows it in many little ways.
It's extremely hard to be able to begin to learn how to reckognize the difference between strong prey with good nerves and strong prey with poor nerves if the dog is just bordering from one to the other.
When you get the chance to see the strong prey with real low nerves, that's more obvious and easy to avoid.
I agree that most sporting dogs, KNPV or even Schutzhund are totally tuned into a trained reaction that to a beginner looks great and looks protective, but it is not. It's a play and the field is the threatre.
Still, there are those few dogs who will take the bite to real on that field, so I would not want to be there in their way with no protection gear on.
But will these same dogs take that confidence off the field, probably not with out the training for it.
I think for anyone who may be interested in KNPV lines and concerned that the dog would be too much prey and not enough substance could easily take the dog off the grounds and check him/her out. Any dog of substance should be able to do ALL of these things and still have the highest level of prey at absolutley any time:
- car travel quietly
- sleep in the house quietly
- learn to stay off tables, counters
- not chase cats in your home
- walk quietly and learn practical healing correctly
-not jump on guests
- not dog fight
- not bark and whine for food
- be able to walk, run and perform normal on any surface anywhere at any height and during any event
- not be upset or concerned about any noise what so ever
- not be concerned about environmental issues in any way at all
- not have to sleep on your bed
- etc, etc, etc,
How can a dog any less intelligent and capable of this self control be acceptable for police training???
My aunt just came back from Holland and did some video taping of many KNPV dogs being used for breeding (with holding names). What she found was that the majority of the dogs are kenneled and appeared incapeable of being calm enough by nature to learn any of the above behaviors. She did however find about 6 different breeders who's dogs were in KNPV and PH titled, who were just remarkable and by watching their tapes you can see many worthy police dog prospects easily.
I think like any sport and most breeders, the good of the KNPV theory of training is lost when the weaker high prey dogs are bred to produce that high prey obedience ability and like in all sports, the dog's suffer when all the good breeding pairs are no more.
The current female I am working is from KNPV lines, her dam being a very serious, protection driven dog with some prey levels and good fight drive. The sire is more the higher prey with a good amount of civil action in him (some fight). The litter came out much like expected, not overly prey driven and capable of learning most protection work. My pick of the litter was a female who showed immense rised prey drive, so her level of civil action is visibly lower than the other. Now what makes her special though, is the un-matchable level of high confidence and she is naturally a hard dog and will not be scared off by anything or stop working ever. This is the true idea behind the KNPV dogs originally. They wanted the rock steady nerves and the super prey with incredible hunt/search drives. There's your police candidate. Learning how to distinguish between the drives is very difficult and too many weaker dogs are out there being accidently placed in the programs. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Ahhhh, Mr. Taylor, I remember the time when the Broward club turned into a GSD kennel's club so you are right they didn't care for me or the Malinios either. When you put yourself out there and do something with dogs you will have those who like what you do and those that don't. I've always had the highest praises from Judges in any sport so that is what is important to me anyway. None of this changes the fact that I think KNPV is for a much stronger dog and a much more difficult sport or (certificate) as they call it. It does not mean all dogs will become Police dogs but since I have done it I know it is harder to achieve then a Schutzhund title.

Well Diane it seems that there will always be something else. Maybe the group there were Pro Shepherd but Miraim Barkus, her son, Phil Hoelcher were all there and handle or have Handled Malinois at some point, so I wonder. But anyway you have made your point.

I do not own any Mals, I do own a number of Czech GSDs. Now that is out of the way, I think it is safe to say that the GSD is in far more trouble in terms of where the working dogs are going than the Mals are. History has shown that the working Mal people are VERY commited to breeding and training their dogs for working qualities. Indeed more than the GSD communities in Europe have done. They have split from their 'Official' breed regis. when they have felt the breed was suffering. When will the working GSD people in Germany stand up to the SV? I realise that the original post of Eds was about KNPV Mals, but it appears to have gone breed general at points.
There are alot of tough, tough mals around the world, with STRONG nerves. The french army's 132nd group has over 600 dogs (mostly mals)which it trains. There are over 1800 dog teams in service. They train these dogs to jump out of airoplanes and parachute into war zones. In the 1960's during the Franco-Algerian war 7500 dog teams entered the battlefield. You then have your KNPV dogs, your FR dogs, MR dogs and NVBK reg dog etc, etc,etc. Even in Czech their military has also taken on Mals. I am far more worried about the GSD.

I used to feel the same as Chris - that working bloodline GSD was in such serious trouble and that there was no hope in Europe to maintain the working bloodlines.

I believe that this is changing. At Bernard Flinks last seminar in Peoria Ill. he talked about how the popularity of the show lines is declining in Germany. He explained that more and more people are only interested in working bloodlines.

There is little question that the lack of drive and tempmerament in show lines has taken it's toll.

As a breeder I would point out that it only takes a handfull of good stud dogs to have a quick and lasting impact on the breed. Look at what Bernd and Bodo Lieberg or Grief Zum Lahntal or in recent years Mink Vom Haus Wittfeld have had on the breed. People that want working blood will go to current stud dogs that can produce working lines.

The concern I have with some of the "working" lines I see is that the dogs don't seem balanced. In a lot of dogs I see the prey drive is so high that the dogs are so driven that they do sloppy obedience work and end up so "sharp" that they have a hard time descriminating a real threat. It almost seems like some of the dogs are just out to bite anything that moves.

I understand that part of the issue is training, but it seems the dogs are so wound up in prey that it is harder to get control on them than it should be. It is getting to the point I get a headache every time I go to a training session from all of the indescriminant barking going on. My preference is for the dog to bark at a threat, not just start barking because you have arrived at the training field!

An intresting point that Ed has, however we will have to wait and see. While there might be a change in working dogs from Germany, for the most part they are high prey. It seems that the real dogs are still coming from other places in Europe. Belgium German Shepherds seem to have the corner market on the working Schutzhund dog with top handlers over here in America. Alot of these dogs that I have seen and worked from Belgium have a bit of an edge; there is something behind them. Look at the pedigree's on these dogs though, they are West German Working Bloodlines: Gildo, Harro for OB. and some Grief. I wonder if it will really keep changing, perhaps the SV Police split had an impact? Time will only tell. Most, not all of the Schutzhund dogs that are trained are the same as the KNPV dogs-high prey but alot of Shepherds have better nerves. Alot of German breeders are focused on this, so while the working aspect might be becoming more popular, time will see how the dogs that these circles produce will function. It seems that alot of the breeders are not focusing in Germany for dogs that are known to produce strong real dogs. While Mink is popular, he produces alot of aggression and this is shunned upon by some. Manto Kalenbach is another, but again is not seen that often or should I say , as often as we should. Kim Wesufer was another that I have not seen as often as he should have been, as he produced hard dogs. I believe that Ed while some might shun him for breeding untitled dogs etc.-he has a program that has proven itself. How many people in America have produced a dog that was in the WUSV or for that fact how many in the world? And I believe he has produced a number of PSD. It will take a drastic change in breeding practices and a change in what most the judges are looking for in Schutzhund for the breed to improve.
I believe that we see so many high prey dogs in KNPV because Mals in general are high prey. This is what is required in the sport not so much the nerves or real aggression. Also Mals are in general are bit spooky in strange situations I have found. Again not all but alot. I have found that Mals will freak, lot of the KNPV ones inside buildings. I have not seen as many Shepherds do this. I have also found with Mals in the KNPV, alot will fight when they cannot flee when put in a strange place, like a building with floors.
The thing is, is that I see this with the French Ring dogs, and Schutzhund dogs too that are Mals. So maybe it is not the sport but the breed. Normally people will get the KNPV because they are looking for a Mal. KNPV I beleive is not a cure all for Police dogs as some believe, nor is the Malinois.

Due to the posts on this subject it is obvious that many of you have very little actual knowledge of the KNPV or their dogs. With that in mind we invite any of you that so desire to attend our upcoming KNPV/Police Dog Seminar to be held the last weekend of October. Please see "Upcoming Events" on our website:Upcoming EventsThank you.
Guy Powell