I was just wondering which was the toughest test for a dog between KNPV and a FR3? Which one is harder on the dogs?

I would assume it would be the KNPV, but I've heard it's not what we'd consider a sport. The Dutch feel it is a police prep. I hear it takes two years on average to train your dog to complete it. It has an extreme amount of parts to it.

I've heard the French Ring is very advanced and tough as well, but it's more of a sport. Not an easy sport. It takes many parts too. They both use the body suit, gun fire, the bicycle, etc. I would assume it would be the KNPV just because of the extreme length of time it would take from what I've heard to pass it. You may want to ask Jerry Cudahy.

Also, the KNPV has two certification levels (PH1 and PH2... PH = "politiehond" or police dog). Which level are you referring to in comparison to FR3?

This is almost a waste of space. To compare the two, or what level is equal to another is foolish and diminishes both programs. They are VERY different in so many ways that to compare them is almost not possible. These arguments never get anything other than ugly as people play the "my game is better than your game" crap. If you like FR, great, KNPV...if there were any here in the US, great. PSA, ASR, BR, Mondio, Sch, IPO..and so on and so on..do what makes you and your dog happy and let those who do something else pick their own game to play.

Josh--I took this to mean "which sport is the most physically and/or mentally punishing" -- ? -- "harder on the dogs"... if that's what Chris meant, wouldn't you say that it's a legitimate question? You look at those dogs going up the 3-meter vertical wall in Mondio Ring and think, damn, that's got to be tough on a dog. Or crashing through all the various barriers that a helper can throw at them. I would like to compete in ring sport myself but I'll have plenty of questions before I do...

Pete Felknor

I was just wondering which was the toughest test for a dog between KNPV and a FR3? Which one is harder on the dogs?

This begins the old my dog's tougher than your dog argument. Obviously humans are very interested in such things, just look at the popular show combat missions, and remember the old competetive sports show where football players battled baseball players in a variety of events not related to either of those sports, I can't recall the name just now? Or, the inevitable argument about which martial art is the best which lead to a contrived octagon of great popularity.
Ultimatly, it becomes one of personal choice. Mnay people in police work have taken on the task of making police dogs out of KNPV dogs, most untitled but many titled to a PHI and a few PHII's and even object guard and spurhund dogs from the KNPV program.
The Dutch KNPV man sees himself as a trainer of police dogs and a proponent of the same. I have even seen some look down their noses at those that try to be sporty in their work although certainly the PHII is a sport from most people's definitions.
The FR is truly a sport where it takes many examinations to become a FRIII and therefore few FR are brought into police work once they acheive success in the sport. This results in no in depth interest in the practical abilities of the dogs whereas in KNPV the organization was and still is for the most part, grounded in the practical production of working dogs for police.
This simply means that the traits propagated by one group of trainers varies from the other and so does the dogs to a small degree.
Both programs test the mettle of the dogs no doubt and both serve the interested participant and fan.
I for one enjoy the KNPV! I like intense guards which are often seen, I like the commitment into the man that a good dog demonstrates on the stick attack. I like the fact that retrievals are integral to many parts of the sport. But, maybe it is because I have spent a little time studying the KNPV, visiting with KNPV men, and the Dutch police schools, as well as fielding the dogs from the discipline more than I have the FR.
Initially I was enthralled by the FR and trained with a number of noted handlers and trainers back in the mid 80's when it was just blossoming here in the US. It is a great sport and quite unique among the dog sports. But, it really comes back to the feel of the sport for me and I like the KNPV of the two best.

<Or, the inevitable argument about which martial art is the best which lead to a contrived "octagon" of great popularity.>
And it was proved that Brazilian Ju-Jitsu was better than karate and Boxing. Gracie rules <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I see that the Belgium Ring and Mondio Ring is I believe a tougher test due to the amount of enviromental stresses it puts on the dogs and also that unlike other programs it does not follow a routine. I would think this puts more stress on the nerves.
I guess what I'm asking is it harder to achieve a KNPV title or a FR3 title. Which is more demanding on the dog, both phyiscally and mentally?
Thanks again.

I think mondioring must be a harder test than IPO/SCH for a dog when it comes to see the level of nerves and courage a dog has. In mondio there is no well known routine like in IPO/SCH, and the decoy in mondio works very active to see what a dog is made of, in mondio the decoy change his behaviuour if he sense a weak dog, then he push this dog harder to bring out the weakness of the dog to the surface. What IPO and mondio has in common is that they are both a game, they want no aggression in IPO and mondiodogs, and I guess the same is true for belgian and french ring. But I wonder if a dog which has good nerves like a good mondiodog must have, also are able to take the stress that a dog must undergo when he learns aggressiontraining. A dog that could stand a lot of enviromental stress, could he also stand the stress during aggressiontraining? Or could a dog which show some nerveproblems in stressfull enviroments still act strong when he is fighting a bad guy on the streets?