And those of you who have ZERO experience with protection training, but who are still posting to protection related threads with opinions and advice know who the -F- you are.

I'm always loving when the maturity level of the moderators is so high. The English language is full of alot of words that I usually choose to use before resulting to cursing on a public forum.

And, could you possibly be directing that at me?

Once again, I am on these web boards to learn, and if I can to help. Not to curse, make fun of people, or close topics because the posters disagree with me.

And I did indeed post that I have not trained a dog specifically for protection, but I HAVE trained dogs for other venues. In my experience dog training is a skill that takes time, knowledge, skill and an ability to be flexible. I have also found that it's best to learn a new type of training from those who are experts and have experience in it, whether in classes, or a club or privates, and supplementing with reading, videos, this site. If none of that is needed for protection training, then I would be surprised.

Jenn, you are missing the point. If you do not do something- don't post responses in that topic. Pretty simple. You won't see me posting in the Police K9 section- nor in Agility, because I would be talking out of my @$$. It gets old.

No one comes to this board because they want someone to type a lecture on the ethics and responsibilities of playing tug with their dog. She asked a simple question.

Deanna, that's why I love these webboards, because I think there is so much to be learned from them and it's amazing how much is similiar in dog training and dog ownership. The fact that there is so much overlap and that people can post their opinions with their background and experience without being afraid of being cursed at or told they have no useful information to give.

Kristen did not just ask about tugging, she also addressed the fact that money was a issue for her, as well as she thought it may better to instead add a already trained protection trained dog to her house if it was going to cost as much to train her existing dog. THOSE were the topics I discussed.

I have sent e-mails to all of the local trainers that do protection work to see what they charge and what kind of methods they use and etc. This IS something I'd like to pursue, but if it comes down to costing just as much (or more) to train my existing dog, or just buying a GSD or Mal that's already trained, we may just buy the already trained dog. I would rather just have the one dog right now, but if it comes down to it, it comes down to it.

And I believe you under-rate your knowledge, skills and abilities as a dog owner/trainer to exclude yourself from topics such as agility. There are so many overlaps in training. If I was in the agility section and asked if it was a good idea to raise and train 2 littermates for agility dogs, wouldn't you have an opinion on that I could use? Or how about my agility dog is aggressive at dog trials and ran out of the ring to attack a dog? Or how about I am having trouble with focus for my agility dog in the ring, instead she sniffs and ignores me?

See, I give you credit for knowledge you have, can't you give the same courtesy to me?

You can justify it to yourself any way you want, but it still doesn't fly with me.

You should drop it and move on to another thread where your owner/trainer skills actually hold water.


Jenn wrote: "Kristen did not just ask about tugging, she also addressed the fact that money was a issue for her, as well as she thought it may better to instead add a already trained protection trained dog to her house if it was going to cost as much to train her existing dog. THOSE were the topics I discussed."


How can you even speak to THOSE topics if you have no experience owning, training, or purchasing a protection dog?

Because I do know how much it costs to train dogs in a multiple dog household, and feed, and vet. And I am also not rich so cost is a factor in all of that.

And because I own a dog from a 'working' background that would have MANY of the same temperment issues, energy levels, a protection dog has.

If a protection dog is EASY to raise, EASY to train, and EASY to control, then I have never trained or raised one of those. Then you all are correct and there will be no issue that arise by adding one to her household. I can read. I have read. I still learn from others and keep an open mind about other dogs and what their personality traits are, as well as other people's training levels/skills/goals are. AND none of the information I have read about protection dogs leads me to believe they are 'easy'.

And if raising a protection dog is a challenge, THAT I do know about. If adding another dog to your house can be a challenge, THAT I know about. If the expense of adding another dog to the house is a consideration, THAT I know about.

Not sure why a 'protection' dog is no longer a 'dog'. It's as if it's a dinosaur (which I do indeed know nothing about training/temperment/cost) and only someone who has worked with one can comment on. The drives of a protection dog are similiar to the drives other dogs have, only more so (or so others have said).

Once again, I absolutely know that many of you with protection dogs have vast knowledge that would help people on other parts of this board. I know that your knowledge about your protection dogs, their temperments, drives, training issues, etc. could help many others on the board and you do not have to post only in the Protection Training topic. While there are absolute differences in the venues and ultimate training goals for many of us, there are also many similiarities.

Ok, you're right. . .I'm wrong. . .


Can you stop posting in this thread now?

'K
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I hope this thread isn't closed, because I really have been learning a lot. I'm going to address some of the things that were said over the weekend now:

 Quote:

The fact is it is not enough to just pay for the trained dog (and since it's expensive to buy a trained dog, and now you'll have the ADDITIONAL expense of feeding, vet bills, etc of another dog and you say cost is a factor)...

I realize this, and I also said that I would prefer not to go this route, but if it comes down to it, it comes down to it. Cost is a factor simply because I wanted you all to know that I do not have the resources to just jump in with both feet and buy this and pay for that and etc. It isn't that I'm rolling in poverty or anything, but I can't spend money like it grows on trees either. Make sense?

 Quote:

Join a good solid club, with good soild trainers who train dogs because they love doing it, not so that they can line their pockets!!! Not saying here that all people who charge for such services are crap.. just most <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

This has become a problem for me. The only club that I'm aware of IS the Sch club (and the Asheville Kennel Club). How do I go about finding out if there's anything else?? Would the Kennel Club have info on PP?

 Quote:

Kristen. Now I'm confused. Going back to Will's comment about being too many steps ahead of yourself. To me step 1 is Why do I want a PP dog? In my opinion it has to be because you have a geniuine need for the protection. You fear for your safety. Or, you want to compete in protection sport. Or, you enjoy the training and bonding with your dog. If your current dog won't track or retrive I doubt he will have the drive for protection work anyway. But now you say you are willing to buy a fully trained dog. I just wonder if you fully understand the responsiblity that goes with owning a PP dog. This isn't just a cute title I can put on my dog to impress my friends. There are many things to consider before taking this step. You say that this is your husbands dream, then why isn't he on this board and doing the training? I don't mean to be discouraging, and I don't want to sound critical. I am just confused. I still think you should get the Drive, Focus and Grip DVD. Work with your dog. See if this is something you want to do. But start at Step 1 "Why do I want to have a protection dog"

Ok. Why do I want a PP dog? You said it had to be because I feared for my safety. Or, I want to compete in protection sport. Or, I enjoy the training and bonding with my dog. It's actually a little of all three. I (and I know my husband) would love to be able to compete. I also do enjoy training my dog; I love being able to teach her new things. You should see her when she hears me pick up her prong collar (whether I'm just moving it or we're actually going out). She can hardly contain herself! She enjoys training as much as I do I think.

You also said, "You say that this is your husbands dream, then why isn't he on this board and doing the training?" I'm sure I've mentioned it before, but in case I have not, I will now. My husband is in the Army, in Fort Leonard Wood, MO for training. He really wanted to be a K9 handler, but there isn't much room for promotions doing that for the Army, so he's being trained to be an MP, and might get a job with a local law enforcement agency in the future - hopefully as a K9 handler. The reason he's not on this board is because he doesn't have access to a computer. We don't have one at home - I'm able to post while at work. Another reason is because he's in MO at the moment! He will be back this weekend, and he IS involved in her training, but she is my dog. I had her before I even met him, so I've done all of her training. He hasn't actually taught her anything new; he just helps keep her known commands reinforced. Usually I'm the one holding the leash and issuing the commands, but she will listen to him also. The fearing for my safety part comes into play because he's in the Army and I don't know when or if he'll be deployed or otherwise have to leave me alone. I want to feel secure knowing that my dog will protect me instantly if it does happen that someone tries to break in on me while he's gone, or if I'm walking her by myself and someone tries to mug me or whatever. She's friendly towards everyone right now, so it would be nice to be able to give her a command and have her look not so friendly if I needed her to. I haven't really had to worry about it while he's been in training, because we have been living across the street from my parents, but by Christmas we should be in our new house.

I think I do understand the responsibility. My aunt's last GSD (she had to be put to sleep about a year and a half ago due to cancer and hip displasia) was trained in PP. She was a wonderful family dog, and I could do anything to her (I was still in school while she had her) but would not hesitate to protect my aunt if she needed her to. So I do have a little bit of experience with a dog that has been protection trained.

You said "If your current dog won't track or retrive I doubt he will have the drive for protection work anyway." It isn't that she "won't" track or retrieve; it's just that I never worked with her to teach her these things, and I don't know how well she'd do. She tracks on her own, like when she gets the scent of a cat or something in the yard, she'll follow it all over the yard. She'll also try to follow the scent of critters if we cross one on the trail while hiking. I just don't know if she'd do it on a Sch field or not - tracking a person. And as far as retrieving, she will do it sometimes if we're playing with her stuffed toys in the house, but it's only like 20% of the time. Many times if I throw her toy, she'll watch it fly through the air, look at it for a second, and when it doesn't move anymore, she looks around for the other one and grabs it up. It's like she's too lazy to actually go and get the one I threw or something. She likes the stuffed toys best - over balls or frisbees.

Oh, and by the way, she's really starting to catch on with the tug toy. I got one of those ropes at the store on Saturday. It's actually called a Tugg. There's sort of a picture of what the one I got looks like at PerfectPuppyToys.com. Mine is like the ones called "Twinn Tugg Ropes" on that page, but mine doesn't look so scraggly. I have only been playing with her in the house right now, because she's too distracted outside, but she seems to be catching on quite well.

Sammy Blondin quote:
".. and yea, I think $65 is outragous considering it takes a very short amount of time to produce a so called PP dog.

Lets encourage scandelous amounts of money for training that requires a very small skill set!"


Sammy, you apparently have a very different view of producing a PP dog than I do then. I train PP dogs with the same attention to detail and seriousness that I do for Police Patrol dogs. In my view, a PP dog must actually defend it's owner in all situations ( unless the owner requests a different level of training ) , no matter what, and by your comment of "produce a so called PP dog", this is apparently not your view.

Maybe you need to expand your horizons and start finding the groups that train for serious protection, if you're basing your remarks on your observations and experiences from your area.

The only thing I was able to find in the way of protection clubs in my area is Panzer K9. It was the only thing listed on the PSA website for my area. What do y'all think of it from what you can read off the site? I've spoken to the guy on the phone and he charges $750 for 6 weeks of training - which is just teaching the dog how to bite.

If I just want to teach her to put on a good show (barking, growling, etc.), then it's $350.