Vince,
Can you describe the dog's body language? Bark? I'm having a hard time visualizing the difference btwn a dog in fight vs prey.

paul wootton wrote: At least now we have the real experts in Donn,Lou and Kevin explaining once and for all the difference between fight and prey drive,perhaps now the doubters will understand the difference.

***** Pretty high company you have me with Paul. An expert is a guy from out of town (old version) with a tray of slides. (New version) with a PowerPoint presentation. That’s not me. I’m just a guy who knows a few things.

Donn Yarnall wrote: As Lou has posted, I am very familiar with the stake test.

***** ROFL. You should be!!! I watched you do it a buncha times picked your brain, stole it and added a few of my own twists.

Donn Yarnall wrote: Prey is not necessary, but it sure makes the training a lot easier.

***** I like a bit of prey because it makes it easier to destress the dog using play. I used to use a ball, but now I use food. This is not treat training, bribery, a reward for performing but a tool to take the dog’s mind off the stress he’s feeling at any given moment. Prey also help in bite building. As Donn mentions later the fight drive bite is not as deep or as hard (at first) as the prey bite. So the prey bite is used to condition the dog to initially take a deep, full mouth bite.

***** There was another thread here about a dog taking bites and releasing and repeating this, tearing his opponent to shreds. I posted there that the purpose of a PSD biting someone is for only two reasons, to control him or as a distraction. If control is the reason for using the dog a deep, full mouth bite accomplishes that best, with the least injury to the suspect.

Donn Yarnall wrote: As you know, genetics are determined even before birth. My old friend Wendell Nope says, “You can’t go back to a place you have never been to before” meaning that you cannot put something into a dog that was never there before, and that a dog cannot exhibit something he does not have.

***** LOL. Wendell is a polite southern gentleman. And Donn is a new age gentleman. Me, I’m just a local boy with no manners. I say, “You can’t make chicken salad out of chicken shit!”

Donn Yarnall wrote: Conversely, chances are if you never invoke a drive, you will probably never see it. You would be surprised at the number of dogs that I have tested that showed at least sufficient fight drive. The owners are generally very surprised, as they have never seen this behavior in their dog before. In most cases this is due to the dog being conditioned through pattern training to expect a certain type of foe – usually prey.

***** Since lots of people don’t believe that fight drive exists as a separate drive, even when they see it, they don’t recognize or acknowledge it.

New England K-9 - Josh Lewis wrote: And you all thought I just went away...LOL

***** We can dream can’t we??? ROFL. And congrats on the CT State K9 championships. Josh trained all the top three dogs.

Donn Yarnall wrote: Remember the purpose of fight drive = the detaining or driving off of a foe. In training the pup you do just that. You will be surprised at the instinct to detain. All the initial work should be civil with loose clothing in case the puppy feels a need to punish you for moving too much. Yes, the decoy gets some bumps and scrapes, but it is well worth it in the long run. If the puppy does bite, the decoy must comply with the puppy's orders to "stand still. BTW, it is very important the handler remain quiet and let the confrontation be between the decoy and the dog. Increase the time of detainment slowly from just a few barks at first to at least 50. End the deataining session with the handler calmly walking up to the dog and pick up his leash, The decoy must keep the dog focused on him. Have the decoy walk or run away, allowing the puppy to achieve drive satisfaction through victory.

***** As you can see this is VASTLY different from what most trainers do when starting a new dog that has prey drive. There are VERY few trainers that will even recognize the potential that a puppy with little prey but pronounced fight drive has.

Donn Yarnall wrote: It is clear the fight drive dog is the easiest to control, and the bark and hold is reliable because it is instinctual. Make no mistake, the fight drive dog's bite is more than adequate to take down and control a criminal - but it is generally not as showy as a prey bite in competition.

***** And here’s the reason that so few sport trainers acknowledge or use fight drive. They never look for it because it’s not as impressive as the prey driven bite. It costs them points.

***** I’ve had “There’s no such thing as fight drive” argument about a dozen times at various sites on the ‘Net. One of the longest was on a bulletin board devoted to Malinois. One very successful prolific SchH trainer denied and still does that fight drive even exists. That discussion started when they started attacking my stake out test and since I wasn’t there to answer there questions, went down the wrong road. But even when I steered them back, many of them simply couldn’t get it. I think that one reason is that there are relative few dogs whose primary combat drive is fight. To find the right animal for police work that Donn, Josh and I favor (Kevin too probably but since I haven’t spoken to him about this, I hesitate to include him) often takes weeks of looking at dogs that have been imported specifically for the purpose of becoming PSD’s. Even among those dogs, fight is relatively rare.

***** Donn has written of it elsewhere and he says that about 30 years ago fight drive was all the rage in Germany. Dogs whose primary combat drive was fight were the norm. Then the SV changed the emphasis in their breeding goals and dogs with fighting drive “all but went the way of the dinosaurs.” The reason was of course, MONEY. Today most trainers don’t even know that prey – defense is relatively new. They think it’s ALWAYS been that way.

***** And since those folks are about getting points rather than capturing crooks, and prey results in a better LOOKING dog they’ll probably never go back.

***** And please don’t take me wrong. This is not a “sport v. real” post. I have the utmost respect for those competing with their dogs.

Hell Lou...I'm much harder to get rid of than that...LOL..thanks for the congrats by the way. I passed it on to the guys. What a great day huh...
Anyways...to keep it simple. If you don't believe in something, you probably don't look for it, nor work to bring it out. It also goes with your saying, if it ain't there, you can't put it there. Dogs IMO are born w/ drives. If they have it they have it. You can do some things to bring them out, but they have to have it in the first place. I personally select dogs for fight/combat drives. They have it or they do not. My new dog is very much this way. Lou has seen his work in his green phases of training. He's not the hardest hitting, flashy, launch from a mile away Mal, but he's not kidding. He's what I expect and want from a dog. I don't think that you can make a person see something they don't want to see. It is far easier to watch a dog "work" on surface of impact to the bite, hardness of the bite ect than it is to figure out why and how he/she is doing so. I also think far too often we judge dogs on what we see. I can make a weak dog "look" great. I've had enough years catching dogs in a suit to make something that really is not that good, look pretty tough. In that there lies a problem. I'll go back to the Donn / Lou / whoever stakeout test long before I want to see any dog sent on a long bite or "courage" test. JMO....

Joy:

A dog (made the nationals a few times but did not show well) from my old club finished tracking one morning and was chasing after his ball that was thrown by his handler for a job well done. At the same time our helper walked onto the tracking field with no equipment on. The dog spit the ball out and ran over to him placing his front paws onto each shoulder and began to bark strongly and confidently while staring him straight in the eyes. No growling or hair was up. The helper looked away from the dog and backed off the field while the handler ran over and grabbed his dog.

Our expert panel might disagree that this was fight but it seems to fit the definitions of Ed and panel to a tee.

Lou writes "***** And here’s the reason that so few sport trainers acknowledge or use fight drive. They never look for it because it’s not as impressive as the prey driven bite. It costs them points. "

I must disagree here Lou. The working dog enthusiast knows he NEEDS fight drive but realizes that the use of it exclusively is a competetive mistake. The dog without some genetic fight drive is too hard to train (prey is hard to control), the goal today is a good fight drive dog that works in prey except under the stick and in the barking excersise (unfortunatly weak dogs are also promoted by the use of self defense and guard drives in the barking as well and the soft stick and less than impresive helpers who are prey in behavior instead of combative). The good working enthusiast understands that fight drive does bouy the dog while under stress and allows the dog to flow in its drives during the routines smoothly and reliably. The top handlers know this and recognize this. The problem isn't in the working dog enthusiasts, it is in the new breed of sport handlers whose dogs are committed to beauty above work and titling and breeding at all costs weigh more than the benefit to the breed for many of these hobbiesdts today. Add to this a decreae in sharpness and less need for pain tolerance due to rules changes (mandatory "B" in schutzhund and a soft padded stick)and there you have it! More weak dogs being propagated and the resultant "can't make chicken salad out of chicken shi*" to quote Lou. Yet, look at the die hard working dog person and their dogs (including their pedigree....the genetic pool of good working GSD's doesn't read much larger than that of the Malinois). They still are strong fight drive dogs which carry good prey (necessary for the points). There are just a lower percentage of these dogs in the scheme of things due to the growing popularity of beauty dogs.
The top work has always been done with good fight drive as a absolutly necessary component of the work. I've also been told by a good friend and respected sport/police trainer that there is currently a resurgence of interest in the working line GSD. I hope this is so.

Vince,
So would we say that the dog's forwardness, willingness to engage the helper were partly due to the dog's previous experiences w/the helper, ie he already knows he can beat this guy?

Lou,the real experts are the ones who get the job done properly,not show pretty pictures of how they think it should be done.
I would not want to argue the point with one of your dogs,they might have fight drive LOL

Vince P - good eye - what you probably saw was detaining behavior (fight drive) in its purest form. It is a pretty picture, isn't it?


Kevin Sheldahl - right on the money grasshopper. And there is a resurgence of breeding for competent combat drives. I am starting to see more and more good GSD's with significant fight drive.


Regards,

Donn Yarnall http://www.donnyarnall.com

paul wootton wrote: At least now we have the real experts in Donn,Lou and Kevin explaining once and for all the difference between fight and prey drive,perhaps now the doubters will understand the difference.

***** Pretty high company you have me with Paul. An expert is a guy from out of town (old version) with a tray of slides. (new version) with a PowerPoint presentation. That’s not me. I’m just a guy who knows a few things.


Donn Yarnall wrote: As Lou has posted, I am very familiar with the stake test.

***** ROFL. You should be!!! I watched you do it a buncha times picked your brain, stole it and added a few of my own twists. Using it to select dog for police service and personal protection, in over twenty years of training, I’ve never had to wash a dog out of training and never had one fail to perform on his first deployment.

Donn Yarnall wrote: Prey is not necessary, but it sure makes the training a lot easier.

***** I like a bit of prey because it makes it easier to destress the dog using play. I used to use a ball, but now I use food. This is not treat training, bribery, a reward for performing but a tool to take the dog’s mind off the stress he’s feeling at any given moment. Prey also help in bite building. As Donn mentions later the fight drive bite is not as deep or as hard (at first) as the prey bite. So the prey bite is used to condition the dog to initially take a deep, full mouth bite.

***** There was another thread here about a dog taking bites and releasing and repeating this, tearing his opponent to shreds. I posted there that the purpose of a PSD biting someone is for only two reasons, to control him or as a distraction. If control is the reason for using the dog a deep, full mouth bite accomplishes that best, with the least chance of serious injury to the suspect.

Donn Yarnall wrote: As you know, genetics are determined even before birth. My old friend Wendell Nope says, “You can’t go back to a place you have never been to before” meaning that you cannot put something into a dog that was never there before, and that a dog cannot exhibit something he does not have.

***** LOL. Wendell is a polite southern gentleman. And Donn is a new age gentleman. Me, I’m just a local boy with no manners. I say, “You can’t make chicken salad out of chicken shit!”

Donn Yarnall wrote: Conversely, chances are if you never invoke a drive, you will probably never see it. You would be surprised at the number of dogs that I have tested that showed at least sufficient fight drive. The owners are generally very surprised, as they have never seen this behavior in their dog before. In most cases this is due to the dog being conditioned through pattern training to expect a certain type of foe – usually prey.

***** Since lots of people don’t believe that fight drive exists as a separate drive, even when they see it, they don’t recognize or acknowledge it.

Donn Yarnall wrote: Remember the purpose of fight drive = the detaining or driving off of a foe. In training the pup you do just that. You will be surprised at the instinct to detain. All the initial work should be civil with loose clothing in case the puppy feels a need to punish you for moving too much. Yes, the decoy gets some bumps and scrapes, but it is well worth it in the long run. If the puppy does bite, the decoy must comply with the puppy's orders to "stand still. BTW, it is very important the handler remain quiet and let the confrontation be between the decoy and the dog. Increase the time of detainment slowly from just a few barks at first to at least 50. End the deataining session with the handler calmly walking up to the dog and pick up his leash, The decoy must keep the dog focused on him. Have the decoy walk or run away, allowing the puppy to achieve drive satisfaction through victory.

***** As you can see this is VASTLY different from what most trainers do when starting a new dog that has prey drive. There are VERY few trainers that will even recognize the potential that a puppy with little prey but pronounced fight drive has.

Donn Yarnall wrote: It is clear the fight drive dog is the easiest to control, and the bark and hold is reliable because it is instinctual. Make no mistake, the fight drive dog's bite is more than adequate to take down and control a criminal - but it is generally not as showy as a prey bite in competition.

***** And here’s the reason that so few sport trainers acknowledge or use fight drive. They never look for it because it’s not as impressive as the prey driven bite. It costs them points.

***** I’ve had “There’s no such thing as fight drive” argument about a dozen times at various sites on the ‘Net. One of the longest was on a bulletin board devoted to Malinois. One very successful prolific SchH trainer denied and still does that fight drive even exists. That discussion started when they started attacking my stake out test and since I wasn’t there to answer there questions, went down the wrong road. But even when I steered them back, many of them simply couldn’t get it. I think that one reason is that there are relative few dogs whose primary combat drive is fight. To find the right animal for police work that Donn, Josh and I favor (Kevin too probably but since I haven’t spoken to him about this, I hesitate to include him) often takes weeks of looking at dogs that have been imported specifically for the purpose of becoming PSD’s. Even among those dogs, fight is relatively rare.

Donn:

Don’t pat me on the back. Pat yourselves on the back. You guys are the teachers. I am just an attentive student.


Joy:

I have trained at 4 clubs in NJ and PA. Every good dog I have seen work has either worked in advanced prey (To the untrained eye is very pretty and looks tough but it is still a game of give me back my prey) or defense (stressful and on the verge of fight or flight) that to see a dog look at a helper as a fighting partner is awe-inspiring. There was no prey present but he had the stress less confident posture of prey. He did not bite the helper because the helper did not show him that he wanted to fight. He looked away and backed up. This satisfied his fight drive as slipping the sleeve satisfies prey drive.