Milt,

Most definitely false. A breeder would have to hang on to the pup until it was 18 months to 2 years for most PD or other agencies to even look at it. They won't buy puppies. In addition, unless you sell hammers or toilet seats to NASA, Government Agencies are notoriously cheap. They will pay for someone to travel to Holland to pick up a dog if they figure they can save $50.00 off the price of the dog.

Maybe that is why some PDs are looking at rescues now?

Milt- still waiting for you to answer your own quiz <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm going to go with FALSE also.

Karmen I don’t have the answer. I don’t believe there is a correct answer. Ellen is right breeders do hold on to their best dogs for breeding. It doesn’t occur in every litter, but it does happen. Richard always makes a good argument and I’m reading what he said and nodding my head in agreement. In afterthought I’m not so sure. Yes he is right in pd or agencies not buying a young pup, but who is? Someone is selling the one-year to 2-year dogs to the police. Is this someone getting the best dogs from the breeders? If you were a breeder would you tell Joe public that you were giving the best dogs away? Of course not I wouldn’t. These are some of my thoughts, but I‘m like a windsock on this topic I could be swayed.
Are you guys watching “Combat Missions”

milt

Milt,

A lot of PD's are importing dogs that are started. Often these are un-papered dogs. They can get them cheaper. The dogs that PD's get from breeders in the states are from sports people that live to train. When they are throught with the dog and ready to start with another puppy they may sell the dog to the local PD.

Jason,

'"protecting you" has always been a prerequisite, in my mind, for a good working dog (certainly GSD). After that prerequisite has been met, then we can talk about herding or whatever additional working capacity you want."

Most of the protection breeds were not bred for doing protection work. Most are from the herding breeds. The changes brought on by doing only show breeding are not a lot different than the changes brought about by people breeding for protection only. How many of the working GSD's or Mal's would you put out for herding sheep? Other breeds come from dogs bred for protecting estates. Those breeds are not used much anymore because they are so big and lack agility for doing close man work.

The only breed I know of that was bred soley for doing man work is the Black Russian Terrier. All the other breeds used have been converted from other purposes. So the idea that the prime requsite for a dog to be a working dog is protection is not from the dogs heritage, but a developed chacteristic after the breeds were developed.

In addition there are several types of protection work that take different types dogs. Basic sport work requires a dog with a high prey drive, this is to impress the judges. It is based on the appearance of the work. For a PSD you need a different type of dog. A dog that is more intense in it's work. Some breeds from sport work will have the necessary intensity for the type of work being done. For Personal Protection you need a different type of dog. A dog with good intensity, but maintaining the ability to mix in with the family and function in a situation of people comming and going in the house. The dog has to be able to accept strangers based on the command of the family, and yet maintain vigilance for a threat. A few dogs will be able to fit multiple roles, but not most. I remember when the Mal was a fairly calm dog like the Belgian Sheep Dog was. Not so now. The GSD was a very calm patient worker, good prey drive, but not to the level you see in sport now.

Breeds change over time, and it isn't always for the better in my mind. The idea that a protection dog is a dog that you have to watch around guests, and in some cases family members, is just contrary to the dogs I am used to working. This is one reason I keep changing breeds.

Professor Richard you should be the one giving pop quizzes. It’s always an education to read your post.

Milt

Hold on just a minute there Milt. Richard has triggered my debate drive. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Richard,
You wrote: "Most of the protection breeds were not bred for doing protection work. Most are from the herding breeds."

Are you saying that the lonely shepherd did not value the dog that showed a passion for protecting his master? We would not likely be going to the herding breeds, in my opinion, if that were true. "All the other breeds used have been converted from other purposes" Many dogs have been used for many different things but if the "will to protect" was not there in the first place, and bred for all along, I don't think it would be there now. Do you think that the inherited traits that make a good protection dog are dominant, or recessive? When pondering this, please refer to the relative swiftness that the AM Shep breeder has done away with working drive, and the near impossible task of getting it back again.

I'm aware that different protection situations may require different types of dogs. Breeders will find themselves leaning a bit too far in one direction from time to time and they will go to other breeders to crank up or tone down their line. What exactly do you think the show breeders are bringing to the table when you make a comment like "The changes brought on by doing only show breeding are not a lot different than the changes brought about by people breeding for protection only."

The breeding of a good protection dog brings many other things with it, does it not? I am reading about TTD now with much interest. Doesn't the posibility of a fight at the end of a track (and the dogs eagerness for that fight) have a lot to do with how good of a tracker he will become? Do you see what I am getting at? A "fighting" dog brings all kinds of stuff to the table with him that may be channeled into many directions. My guess is, the very first shepherd that used dogs successfully, figured out a long time ago that his favorite protector was also very good in other endeavors.

I feel that man has always valued what a good protection dog brings him. The other uses of our working dog were most likely secondary, and a fortunate side effect of what a good protection dog brings with him. JMO

If Rich wants to talk origins then lets do it right. That protection vs. other working disciplines is horse shit. Yes, yes long before any of us were around the dogs that most of us now use for protection dogs were mostly used for herding sheep, goats, or cattle.

BUT, they used the same drives to do one job or the other. The essence of what makes the dog a worker does not change. Drive is drive is drive.

Prey drive, defense drive, fight drive, rank, sharpness, hardness, blah blah blah are all very necessary in all aspects of what I consider real work. Herding, protection, police, whatever.

I would put any good shutzhund dog or protection dog out to herd, even police dogs. They have to learn control in man work why not in sheep work. You don't think that the two are similar? OooooKaaaayyyy :rolleyes:

Black Russian Terrier, the only dog bred soley for man work. Please, can you name for us all the different dogs that went into making that ugly monster. Let me take a stab- Rottweiler, Giant, Bouvier, Dane, Terrier. Am I close? Better question yet- How many of the dogs used to spawn the creatures were herding or hunting breeds? Is that where the good working drives come from? I would bet the farm that your Black Russian Terror was converted out of dogs that were converted out of other working fields to do man work.

OK if the BRT, as you say is the only dog bred for man work, what then about the Dobie? Heir Doberman, I think, made them soley for protection from man. (Lets be honest. For protecting his drug crops and stashes. Opium then heroin, I think that is how the progression went. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ) He used hunters, and herders. The best dogs for working drives.

I'm not buyin' your arguement is what I'm trying to say.

I guess that both Jason and I have low debate thresholds. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Jason, nice point "fighting dog brings all kinds of good stuff to the table that may be channeled into many directions."

Drive is Drive is Drive. What you do with it determines what kind of working dog you have. My post earlier regarding real working drives goes right along with this. I wonder if the bird retriever GSD has the other drives that are necessary for work. Ones that are sorely missing in the "ASS" (American Show Shepherd) Herding or protection require- hardness, sharpness, prey, defense, fight. All are necessary even if the dog is just pushing around a bunch of dumb lamb chops. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Another nice point by Jason- "What exactly do you think the show breeders are bringing to the table. . ." That whole passage was right on the money IMO.