I have no real experience with PSD or protection dogs so you can disregard this post if it sounds like I'm talking tripe.
I think if the only times the dog is crated is when he's involved with training he is stressing out in anticipation of "the good stuff" and associates training and the crate. Maybe crating him for longer periods (not excessive - just longer) when he will not be training will enable him ot think of the crate as
boring old routine stuff,too. Sled dogs that are boxed only to go training and then right back home
will sometimes exhibit the same drooling,spinning
,digging etc behaviours as soon as they are boxed in anticipation of getting out to do the "good stuff" (running).
Once they get used to the idea that they may have to spend an overnight sleep in it, some of the more excessive behavior wears off. Putting them in the crate or boxes when they are real tired
helps also and eventually they see the crate as a welcome place of rest rather than a nasty old thing keeping them from the fun. Managing the enthusiams of high attitude dogs of any type can be a challenge I guess. I am missing some upholstery, a piece of door trim and a seatbelt
from the time I was helping someone hook up their team and my 14 year old retired leader decided she was missing out on the fun. (It only took 5
minutes!) Like I said I have no knowledge of PSDs
and if you think I'm out of line posting let me know.

Mike,
Sometimes keeping it simple as tiggy2 suggested works
best. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Try crating the dog at intervals during the day,
this should let him associate being in the crate for reasons other then training. He has to learn that being in the crate is a positive sitution not a punishment.

It's possible he's becoming conditioned to the crate and associates it to being confined when the other dogs are out. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

How does he respond when in the crate away from the traing area????

 Quote:

Originally posted by Richard Cannon:
Kojak,

Ok my interest is piqued. Are you suggesting that the way to cure this problem is by agitating the dog in his crate (or kennel for that matter)? I really fail to see how that is going to teach the dog to calm down when he is in his crate. I would also worry it would increase his defensiveness in the crate (or a patrol car for that matter) and make the situation worse. The thing this dog needs is to be comfortable and able to relax. I really doubt it is seperation anxiety as the effect is different in a run or staked.

What would you suggest as permenant solution?

Wow, ya'll assume way too much, And no offence Ed but why would you need to "STEP IN" on a subject that I have had no responce to? I never said aggitation, run or any of the above.
I'm glad I piquid you interest but you are going down a road without me in the car.
So with that said in my defense, lets get back to the "WORK" at hand.
See how work has many meanings,

And trust me, I understand and teach in many of the same ways this board teaches or at least tries to share. (by the way ED I got the "drive" video with Mr. Flinks") Not bad, not bad at all,
However there are many people in the USA, that know and teach this same school of thought. Why would you need to go to Germany? With this being said most of these guys are outside of the "Schutzhund World".
Anyway, Let me get back to my work.

I posted very clear questions:

Have you ever worked your dog in the kennel?
( This does not mean aggitation. I guess if you come from a sport back ground, I could see how you would jump to the aggitaion assumption quickly. However, in this situation this is not the case.

Do you know how to work a kennel? I posted this question to direct the person to an answer;; IE what kind of work, please expand, yada yada yada.

And what level of communication do you have with your dog through obedience work.( This is a clear question I hope does not need an explanation?) or does it I don't want to assume?

True separation anxiety is incredibly rare and the mild cases can easily be work out through your decisions and directions. Your decision can and will relieve your dogs stress.

(Decision and direction these are the keys to the Kennel work.

So, I will ask these questions.

1. How do you get your dog in the kennel?
For that matter how do you get your dog in you Police car.

2. How often do you repeat this action?
Do you only ask your dog to "kennel in" once or twice a day? Have you ever asked multiple times while either praising, correctiong, or redirecting for the compliance or lack there of?

If we approach the kennel in command in the same mind frame as we do our agility equipment, the stress of the kennel can be worked out.
Repetition, with praise, repetition with correction, repetion with redircetion. Other wise known as work. Obedience, is not just for on the field of work or play. It is the only line of communication you have with your dog. You need to use it inorder to over ride the stress. You can take your down, your sit, your heel, your kennel in or kennelout to a whole new level, because you made the decision.
If you made the decision, then you should get a compliance from your dog, The dogs stress is relieved through your decision.

Let me take a few steps back before I lose my point.

If we put our dog in a down, Is this work? does it have or cause stress? Is this "work" for the dog? If so can we relieve this stress?
If so then can't we approach the "kennel in" command in the same way?

I'm very sorry to ramble. I look forward to your reply.

Kojak,

The question remains:

If everybody else is wrong, what would you suggest? For that matter how would you define work? The question seemed, straight forward enough, I saw nothing about seperation anxiety implied in the question just how to get the dog to calm down in the crate. A very common problem with high drive dogs. It would be nice to make a descision that the dog won't have a problem and that be the solution, it just doesn't work.

So, again, what would you recomend?

“However there are many people in the USA, that know and teach this same school of thought. Why would you need to go to Germany? With this being said most of these guys are outside of the "Schutzhund World".”

Kojak:

I would never comment on your competency in dog training because I do not know you or know enough of your training philosophies. But I will comment on your statement above. To the untrained eye the video looks like a guy training a dog with a ball. Big deal. To the trainer who understands the drives and behaviors of a working dog it is awe inspiring and thought provoking. Again I do not intend to give a negative tone and I look forward to hearing your comments on this thread and the ones to come.

Kojak:

I also enjoyed the video and liked the Motivational Retrieve even better. I hope you continue to use and enjoy the board.

Originally posted by Richard Cannon:
Kojak,
Let me start off by saying I will respectfully disagree with a few of your comments and questions.
And I will try to be clear with my answer. But I got to tell you it's a little hard to willingly make yourself a target on paper.
Thats Why I asked the questions I did, So I could hear the level of communication HE had with HIS dog.

The question remains:

If everybody else is wrong,(never said this, I said bandaid, common with treatment with behavior conclusions and not training) what would you suggest? For that matter how would you define work?(I thought I gave insite to my thoughts and approach to work?) The question seemed, straight forward enough, I saw nothing about seperation anxiety implied(Then I don't think you read all the replies he was getting they not only implied it they said it. And further more they implied it by giving common solutions for symtems of separation anxiety) in the question just how to get the dog to calm down in the crate. A very common problem with high drive dogs.( I respectfully disagree this is a common problem in high drive dogs that have not recieved the direction of thier handler) (High drive or not) (Drive has little to do with this situation, however lack of focused drive does. Big difference)It would be nice to make a descision that the dog won't have a problem and that be the solution, it just doesn't work.(Or should we say you have not seen it?)..(I see it everyday)

So, again, what would you recomend? (So what I would recommend, can only be answered when I have more information from Mike.
If you want me to speak on a fictitious dog I will, but I don't think it will make a clear point.
If I draw a conclusion before I know more of the dog I will be guessing. I approach dog training I'm sure like you approach medicine I don't want to guess.)

Originally posted by Vince P.:
Kojak:

I also enjoyed the video and liked the Motivational Retrieve even better. I hope you continue to use and enjoy the board. Oh crap Vince, Where is my credit card, crap not another video purchase! Well I guess, it's back to eatting beans out of the can. HA AH AH HA HA.
Let me know when Ed has his weekly sales!!!!!

Kojak,

"If everybody else is wrong,(never said this, I said bandaid, common with treatment with behavior conclusions and not training) what would you suggest?"

The term "band-aid" I think would "imply" that you think the approaches are not a solution. I am curious as to your impression of a solution.

"For that matter how would you define work?(I thought I gave insite to my thoughts and approach to work?)"

Re-reading your post I guess that you are including the obedience as "work" which I can accept. It isn't the most common use here, but that is a problem with language being subject to interpretation.

"The question seemed, straight forward enough, I saw nothing about seperation anxiety implied(Then I don't think you read all the replies he was getting they not only implied it they said it. And further more they implied it by giving common solutions for symtems of separation anxiety) in the question just how to get the dog to calm down in the crate."

Yes I read all the replies, yes one did suggest that, the question didn't. The same techniques are often used for many things. The solution isn't always limited to one type of problem.

"A very common problem with high drive dogs.( I respectfully disagree this is a common problem in high drive dogs that have not recieved the direction of thier handler) (High drive or not) (Drive has little to do with this situation, however lack of focused drive does. Big difference)"

I have seen this a lot with dogs that are high drive. The most common reason is that the dog doesn't have a proper intoduction to the crate in a non-work situation as a puppy. In this case the opporunity for that is lost. The situation now is to provide a solution for the problem as it is presented now. Without doing 20 pages on the dog and handlers relationship, I think it is safe to assume that it is pretty good. It is not that hard to preference a response with that. So assuming the dog is sound, the relationship with the handler is good, the dog is adequately obedient,..., what would you suggest as a non-band-aid solution?

"It would be nice to make a descision that the dog won't have a problem and that be the solution, it just doesn't work.(Or should we say you have not seen it?)..(I see it everyday)"

I have seen a lot of things in dog training. Problems require some sort of soution. In almost every "normal" case the required solution is a function of modifying the undesired behavior. That will usually require some sort of intervention. This type of problem can become a real problem with dogs. Left uncorrected I have seen dogs that will tear cars apart during down time between work sessions. I have never understood why the problem wasn't corrected when it began, but it wasn't. The best "solution" is to not let the problem occur, not always a choice when the dog is obtained as an adult.

"I approach dog training I'm sure like you approach medicine I don't want to guess."

I also do that with both, however in both often the solution is to try new things that are different from what you have been doing. So any suggestion provides another look at the problem and with many available perspectives the solution is often contained in one.

You have further stimulated my thought process. One thing that I have always done with my dogs from the begining of training is not allowed the "out-of-control" prey barking when the dog isn't working. When it isn't their time to work I expect them to stay quiet and controled. I have often been told that this is a mistake that will "squash" drive. My point is always that I don't want to train a problem that I am going to have to correct later. If you want a dog that is calm at training when it isn't working, why not train it from the begining. Now the breeds I work with tend to be more balanced than the typical Mal, but I rarely see this type of behavior corrected at training sessions.