*****"Am I on the right track when I believe that a 99 point SchH3 routine or the title "Bundessieger" doesn't mean that you've got a good protection dog. Further tests should prove the temperament and the real thing. Sport and reality are different ball games."

"Exactly!It would like be comparing a good NFL football player against a SAW gunnner from the 82nd Airborne. One's for sport ( and probably good at it ) and one will kill your a*s dead'er than dirt, end of story. Different temperaments for different jobs."******

What a bunch of s**t! I am so tired of this old discussion. Most top scoring dogs at the BSP can out do any US "protection" dog. Until you have been there and seen them train you have no idea of what they do in the off season. They train suit work, muzzle fighting, etc...

These dogs know how to handle stress very well simply because of the amount of pressure that is put on them. The Germans apply a lot of it in order to get the points. Your "boogie man" senarios are no match for the amount of pressure these dogs have seen.

I hear all the time how people have imported good dogs and how they are good "sport" dogs and "point" dogs but not real dogs. Well, duh, that is why they were sold to the States. Then on the other side of the fence I hear how a certain dog is so hard and strong that they are not good sport dogs or can't get the points. Usually these "wanna be" handlers or trainers don't know or are not capable of applying the pressure it takes to get these dogs the points.

As Dr. Raiser would say: "Good dogs are not for sale. No amount of money can buy a good dog. And if the good dog did sell, then it wasn't that good in the first place."

Steve

Steve, I was stationed in Europe for three years and spent a lot of time at SchH clubs when it was hardly even know in this country. While there were no big name handlers in the club, I didn't see that the pressure put onto the dog was any different that what is applied nowadays here in the U.S.
And a top scoring dog at the BSP can be bought for, what....$20K at the absolute minimum? So the maybe the top twenty dogs in the BSP could handle a real world attack? Some how, I don't find those odds comforting.

And as far as "Until you have been there and seen them train you have no idea of what they do in the off season. They train suit work, muzzle fighting, etc..." Well....Bernhard Flinks has placed as high in protection as they come in the BSP, but he did not like a SchH dog being trained on a suit at all.

And you're looking at something wrong. Let's look at your statement " These dogs know how to handle stress very well simply because of the amount of pressure that is put on them. The Germans apply a lot of it in order to get the points. Your "boogie man" scenarios are no match for the amount of pressure these dogs have seen."
Ok, great...the Germans put a lot of pressure on their dogs - that's the *handler's* that put most of the pressure on the dogs. The pressure put on the dogs but the helper, while intense, is *always* in a set pattern on a training field. Apply that pressure on a slippery floor in a dark stairwell and see how they do. Maybe the top ones will pass that test, but I doubt it.

Actually, Steve does make one valid point ( to a degree ) when he said " Most top scoring dogs at the BSP can out do any US "protection" dog."

That's true due to this point - the average top scoring dog at the BSP has had thousands of hours of training poured into him - that's is certainly not the case of most U.S. protection dogs.
Train protection dogs to that degree and then that statement would change.

But I do know of a few U.S. protection dogs that will beat any BSP dog in a real world attack, period. Only a few, but they're there.

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The undocumented reports I'd get would always have the dogs that magically knew to attack the perp when they pulled out a weapon ( the dog recognized a weapon? Amazing! ) and would *always* bite the bad guy on the arm that held the weapon. What an amazing coincidence...

First let me say I am not disagreeing with your methodolgy of analysis, imperical data is a fundamental criteria for forming valid, repeatable conclusions, but perhaps there is an explanation for a person claiming their dog bit someone on the arm holding a weapon.....lets assume an emotionally charge situation, one that might make your dog anxious, assuming this dog has territorial aggression as well, lets say a human aggressor approaches you arm extended with a rubber duckie in their hand, if the dog then attcked the aggressor by biting them on the outreached arm, sort of like some one coming at it with a stick, this certainly would not mean the animal RECOGNIZED a weapon, maybe only that it was what appeared to be the closest object that was threatening the dog and it's territory.....and to take this HYPOTHETICAL scenario a bit further, if a dog reacted in this manner in similar situations, would he not be protecting even if he doesn't, as we humans would say, mean to protect his owner? OK, now I'm gettin ready to duck, because I am sure Will is loading his very big, well versed guns.....just a different perspective <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

"Steve, I was stationed in Europe for three years and spent a lot of time at SchH clubs when it was hardly even know in this country. While there were no big name handlers in the club, I didn't see that the pressure put onto the dog was any different that what is applied nowadays here in the U.S."

No offense Will and not trying to ruffle any feathers, but, I was referring to TOP trainers and handlers, maybe you need to take a trip back over there and spend some time with top handlers and trainers of the BSP. And are you training with any top SchH handlers/trainers here in the US? Not making this a pissing match or anything, just asking questions.


"Well....Bernhard Flinks has placed as high in protection as they come in the BSP, but he did not like a SchH dog being trained on a suit at all."

Of course I may offend someone, because I know a lot of people like Flinks on this board, and I believe that he is good....but to get a "V" at the BSP in these days, means that you are excellent. In 2002 Flinks received 93 points and in 2001 he received 88 points in protection. My hero, Dr. Raiser, has the highest scoring of protection at the BSP of 100 points which he did again last year. I also have pictures of him working dogs on the suit.

All of the TOP sport dogs that I have seen or worked will eat your a**. Of cousre I have not seen them all and not even a majority of them.

"Ok, great...the Germans put a lot of pressure on their dogs - that's the *handler's* that put most of the pressure on the dogs. The pressure put on the dogs but the helper, while intense, is *always* in a set pattern on a training field. Apply that pressure on a slippery floor in a dark stairwell and see how they do. Maybe the top ones will pass that test, but I doubt it. "

I have not seen it done this way. It goes without saying that the handlers put a lot of pressure on thier dogs, but the helpers put just as much or even more pressure on the dogs. Most of these dogs are so intense that the helpers HAVE to have a lot of presence and but A LOT of pressure on the dog in order to keep them clean. As far as your "real senarios" I have seen and have myself trained SchH in a barn on hay, in a horse trailer, on slippery floors, etc...

Steve

That's a pretty strong statement Will. Especially considering there have been quite a few actual police service dogs with street experience in the BSP over the years.
But, there is a concern when taking a polished competition dog that has never done anything but train for points and create practical behavior. Some need very little work and others need a bunch of work. You need to look at the dog's character.
In reality most PPD's in the US really suck. Usually done via agitation techniques and not good balanced work.
Unfortualtly the crowd that often encompases the "my dog's for real" attitude are not versed enough to even have an appreciation for the sport and what it represents let alone the skill to produce a practical dog within the confines of the sports.
I also see in this thread that Flinks didn't believe in the use of the suit with sport dogs?????? I guess I imagined all that training he and I did with sport dogs on the suit both here and in Europe.

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Actually, Steve does make one valid point ( to a degree ) when he said " Most top scoring dogs at the BSP can out do any US "protection" dog."

That's true due to this point - the average top scoring dog at the BSP has had thousands of hours of training poured into him - that's is certainly not the case of most U.S. protection dogs.
Train protection dogs to that degree and then that statement would change.

But I do know of a few U.S. protection dogs that will beat any BSP dog in a real world attack, period. Only a few, but they're there.

Kevin, you and I worked your dog with Bernhard at the last seminar, but he's was a PSD candidate.
Bernhard did say at the seminar at my place that he didn't like suit work for *competition* dogs. Sorry, I should have made that more clear.

Not trying to argue with anyone but a dog can and will target the weaponed arm when trained to do so.Im not a sport guy and for my money and(life).Ill teach my dog to go for the weaponed hand every time, if it is availible.
Will is correct in only including documented cases.

As far as the Sport verses "real" dog argument is concerned,you must judge each and every dog individually.Dont just say "well its a sport dog so it aint all that".Look at the dog in front of you and decide for yourself.Dont take someone elses word for it.Like Kevein says,look at the dogs character.It dont matter if its a BSP dog or a bad a$*## police K9 or a farm dog.Judge each dog with an open mind and never "count on a dog to save your life" you HAVE to have a plan B when the situation goes south.JMO.

Steve,
Yes, I'm training with one of the best dog trainer's in this country.
And I've been a member of the of some the largest SchH clubs in this country, and I've trained along many of the high scoring SchH handler's and coaches here.
And don't worry, I'm not taking this as a pissing match. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

A dog trainer is your hero? I think we have a very different concept of the word "hero" there. I didn't realize that dog training put the trainers life at risk and saved peoples lives......

You say that all the top dogs "will eat your a**". Ok, may I ask how you know this? Were you with the dogs and handlers at the moment of an personal attack? Or are we speaking of on the training field?

Not trying to ruffle your feather's either here ( except for the "hero" part, that's just a pet peeve of mine like when people call a sports player or TV star their hero. I've fought along side true "heroes" in combat and I always find the misuse of the word an insult to those folks. Just a weird quirk of mine, sorry. )

Will, police documented cases, and or court proceedings show part of the picture. While I agree that dogs are not the end-all, and agree that most sport dogs don't have good balance, and that most protection dogs are not well trained, or even well selected...I must say that there are huge numbers of solid - yet un reported, for a wide variety of reasons - dog bites...in true defense of the handler, in mistaken defense of the handler, and in defense of "pack" territory...

Curious note: I think that a subordinated "protection dog" is at least somewhat likely to bite its handler during a real life attack on the handler. I have seen it happen twice, so there's no scientific back up, other than my impression.

Dogs have been biting people for eons, and yes...full frontal attacks, etc etc. Nowadays dogs that do that...well, they're just more difficult to find.

I'm eagerly awaiting your book...because I will be VERY interested in reading about those documented incidents...and their specific dynamics. From those dynamics I expect to obtain some generalization.

It's incorrect to argue the sport vs real thing...because there's no argument. Some sport dogs are great, good, so-so, lousy, and the same for "real" dogs. It's a bell curve on both sides.

My point is this: dogs are an important layer of protection, even if they don't bite. If you want a dog that bites...you better know what you're doing.

The latter dogs are certainly out there.