thanks ed--you said everything i wanted to....

Ed, Cindy,

Very well put on all counts of replies sent. I watched this last night (not long after the initial post was made I think) and instantly called the wife in to watch it again and we thought it was fantastic.

I was under the impression at the time, that Ed had posted this as a NICE thing, to show what can be done with good bonding, training and expertise, was I wrong??

Anyway I thought it was fantastic, and for the guy NOT to have used the whip, which I've seen more than I'd like with horses, was astounding to me, being very new to training (my dog).

Some people take things too far and far too seriously.

John

just my .02 on this - I am familier with Pat Parelli's training and think highly of it. But, it is training, using methods of body language that horses understand because they are herd animals. I don't see the "bonding" between horse and handler here. There is no "bonding" such as we see with our dogs. This horse is showing every body posture and signal he has, of submission. His tail is either tucked (submission/stress) or switching back and forth (agitation)- the whip is not being used for pain, but it is used for force - obviously the horse is very respectful of the man, and the whip is used as an extension of his arm/hand, for direction. In the horses' opinion, the whip is not "nice" - he is very respectful of it as he is respectful/submissive to his handler.
Every body posture this horse has is showing submission - ears back and to the side - never forward which is the sign of a friendly or interested, curious horse. They are also not pinned back which is the sign of a stubborn or angry, or fearful horse. Ears relaxed, but to the side and pointed back is submission, not pleasure or "bonding". Head down and tucked - submission. When the handler is standing by the horse with hand on neck - head drops to the ground - the horse is completely cowed, no thoughts of his own - waiting for the handler's next direction and showing his submission in every way he can. Tail clamped to the butt - submission. Tail switching - agitation/stress. The tail is never up, flagged or flowing out and behind him - never a relaxed happy tail.
Horses are herd animals and capable of being trained to follow the leader. This horse is trained to follow the handler who he sees as the leader - all of the intricate steps you see him do are nothing he can't and won't do on his own in the field with no handler present. The handler just directs him to do it in a controlled manner. Dressage is the same way, as is cutting, reining, jumping and etc.

Molly

I completely agree with you that the horse here is not expressing enthusiasm with its performance. I disagree, however, with the implication that a horse cannot be a happy partner with the handler through training. I work with a horse that cannot wait to learn and is "happy" for many of the training sessions. We truly have a bond in that he can anticipate my commands and work with me to accomplish a goal. While natural horsemanship training allows me to present myself as "boss mare" to him, it does not deprive us of a complete partnership.
Leah

I did not say the horse cannot be bonded or affectionate toward the handler, and horses can indeed enjoy the work and training. My own horse was raised by myself since birth - handled daily by myself from the very moment she was born. She is a wonderful horse with lots of personality, never abused or mistreated. She does enjoy being ridden, worked with, groomed or bathed. She likes the attention and is very affectionate to me. She knows my two vehicles and will come running when I pull in the driveway, ignore all others driving by and in the same driveway. She comes running every time I whistle. She "loves me"? Or is it a bonding having to do with being raised and trained and handled by me for 13 years. I don't think it is the same "love bond" as I have with my dogs. However, as I said - it is not the same as bonding with a dog. The horse being a herd animal, is a follower - and they are very comfortable being a follower. If a human is the leader, they fall into the role of following what the handler directs, with training of course, very readily and happily. Where abuse is not always tolerated by dogs - they will rebel in some form or another - horses simply don't understand it. So abusing a horse to "train" it really doesn't work at all. It can make the horse compliant and submissive, and dull - but trained - not in the true meaning of training. Horses are trained mainly by pressure - putting pressure on, and releasing it - this woul be called "force" in dog training. The pressure doesn't have to be physical although much of it is - the aids of rein/bit, leg pressure, seat and weight - horses are sensitive to such pressure and release, and learn from it. This is "force" training, even if it is not abusive. Dogs can be trained with pressure, but it is different pressure - more like "real" force. Different creatures altogether.

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And I can tell you from firsthand accounts that these guys do some really UGLY stuff when they think nobody's looking, such as dropping, tarping, and beating a horse, then coming with said 'obedient' horse to the clinic the next day. How harmonious is that? Let's get real, folks!

I realize I am new to this site and this discussion forum and I try to only comment and give ideas that have worked for me. I am constantly learning from all the information this site has to offer.
I really have to say that this comment upsets me. I have several Parelli dvd's and my horses benefit from this type of training. This comment IMO is just wrong. When I needed help with this training, never EVER was anything recommended that even seemed UGLY. I have a horse that was "beaten (or trained as the guy called it) into submission to work. I have had him for four years now and done that level one work with him and you can tell the difference. When he first came home he would shy away if you moved to quick, rear up, kick and basically use all his flight instinct to avoid contact. He now practically comes when called and begs for more attention. IMO, if there were any ugliness going on behind closed doors, you would be able to tell. Just like you can tell when a dog has been trained with positive reinforcement with any corrections coming at the right time or if the dog has been "strong armed" into obeying.
This is just my .02 cents worth.