I gotta tell you, one of my dogs is what you can describe as a 'fearful' dog. She's naturally submissive towards anyone she meets, and she freaks at every little thing (bags hovering in the air, slick floor, etc.) She has real issues, used to be food aggressive, is very insecure (if I'm eating she'll immediately try to ward off the other dogs so she can have all the dropped pieces).

If I correct her, she WILL shut down. I have sometimes gone a bit overboard on her and she will not obey. Corrections do her little good. She wears a prong but only for guidance when I was training heeling.

Sometime after getting her I figured out that 'telling' her I'm the pack leader by pronging her or correcting her, or doing these things to make her do something, isn't going to work. A dog can only go through so much before they 'shut down', and stop listening to you. Since then I've simply encouraged her, showed her what to do without conflict, telling her when she's done something good, and then giving her a reward every single time. Food and toys most of the time, always "Good girl!" and a little bit of roughhousing. Dogs like this, you show what's right instead of telling her what's wrong. I want her to do a faster sit, well, I get her thinking she'll get something nice each time I ask her to sit, and the faster her butt gets to the floor the faster the reward's going to come.

She will obey me at the far end of a field when I yell "PLATZ!" to her. I have her do this when she is suddenly triggered by a bunch of seagulls and go off to chase them. We can do a Schutzhund heel off leash in the middle of a busy street. I've never really 'weaned' her off food, or toys, or anything. I know she's working for me, and I don't have to prove that to her by withholding her rewards.

Just some things to keep in mind. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It took me a while personally to get into this sort of mindset. I used to think when I said "Sit" a dog had to sit quickly and efficiently, and that I simply "reward good, correct bad". Then after a long list of failures, I realized--why should they? They're not machines. They're breathing, thinking beings. I make myself easy to work for, and the dogs work. And my God, they do work. I don't scream commands anymore. I barely have to whisper it to them now. I don't have to reward. I do anyway. Every time they break the species barrier and listen to my words, it's like a piece of heaven broke off and sprayed on us. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I can't bear myself to ask anything more of them.

My head hurts. I'm not very good at explaining this in print <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Even among fearful dogs, dogs range between hard and soft. Most fearful dogs are soft, some are soft to the extreme.

A correction on a collar is not the only kind of correction.

In a fearful dog that is very soft, a light touch on the shoulder may be the only correction necessary - almost more of a reminder. Other fearful dogs need a higher correction with a collar. The level of correction necessary (in any dog) varies according to drive and startle.

If a dog has a low pain tolerance during a fearful response it usually indicates that training alone cannot alleviate the dog's fear. (If you're interested in chemistry, PM me) In these circumstances, training(including massage therapy), diet (including non-drug supplements), exercise must be considered together. If these do not lessen the stress on the dog over time, medication (clomiparamine, clomicalm) is the only other known option. Some dogs do respond from short-term medication - then weaning the dog off the medication after the dog has been socialized and trained.

 Quote:

My head hurts. I'm not very good at explaining this in print <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Same with me. When I read what I write it comes out different than what was in my head. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

My head hurts. I'm not very good at explaining this in print <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Quite the contrary, you're very good at explaining <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> After reading all of your posts on this thread I realize after I increased my dogs confidence maybe I could have taken him farther in his OB instead of thinking I would damage his new found confidence. Is flooding safe for all dogs? Could it have serious implications for some? I would never have tried something so aggressive with Montana because I think it would have truly scarred him. I had the "OMG you poor thing, what did they do to you at the animal shelter!" attitude though... My understanding of desensitization training is that it's all positive and geared toward the exact opposite of physical compulsion.

Everything you said sounds like it makes a lot of sense, but trying to picture that approach (flooding and compulsion with desensitization) with my dog I envision his response to have been a complete shut down and panic attack immediately following. Does a person need to bring the fearful dog up to a certain level of confidence before attempting the flooding approach and prong collar? How much skill does one need to use these techniques on a weak dog without ruining any new found confidence? Or is the confidence found in the completion of the exercises? Is this approach safe with all dogs, namely weaker dogs? You're posts are really interesting <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Same with me. When I read what I write it comes out different than what was in my head. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I have the same problem <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Very impressive that you can get your fearful dog to platz at a distance with seagulls flying. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Very impressive that you can get your fearful dog to platz at a distance with seagulls flying. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Not really, she looks pissed when I do this, and that was a very stupid situation for me to have put her in. I should've chased them seagulls off myself in the first place. I was VERY lucky. (Another time a kid ran into us and she started to give chase, again VERY lucky she obeyed). I would never trust her or my other dogs again in that sort of situation--just too risky, and sets the dog up to fail.

It does prove my point that you do not have to wean a dog off rewards. It's the process of giving the treat and letting the dog know why he got it in the first place that's most important.

No need to totally wean a dog off of food or any reward for that matter. It's the random reward, and anticipation of such, that keeps the dog in drive.

I’m not really getting stressed out with Forrest, it’s understanding and trying to figure out what’s best for him that can be stressful. I’m not heartbroken either he is a great dog! He is a loyal companion, and he melts my heart with his sweetness.

I do try the best I can to describe exactly what I’m doing, and I think not explaining it in-depth detail is leaving an impression that may not be accurate. But I do try to re-explain something I may feel is being misunderstood. Anne and Kristine please try not to get worked up, we have time and I don’t want you to leave me in the dust, because the message isn’t getting through the first time. I do re-read the post. Sometimes my first thoughts when initially reading a post and the ones after are completely different as my comprehension isn’t all that great. So the more often I re-read the better the understanding. Your messages are getting through, but sometimes just not right away. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

If I had to rate Forrest’s level of fears, 5 being the worst of his fear and 1 being the least amount of worry. With everyday house stuff it would be a 1, when he has new encounters of family friends in the house its a 2. Walking him outside in the neighborhood starts off at 3.5 and then drops to a 2. The car going back and forth from my driveway to the neighbor’s driveway directly across from us right now it’s a 3, a few days ago it was a 4. The day I walked Dakota away from him and my daughter when we were outside was a 5. If he is placed in the yard alone it’s a 4.

When I mentioned that I tried a sterner approach I was referring more to my demeanor and was taking what was suggested of being the one in charge (acting the part). Not my corrections, although if I felt one was warranted for undesirable behavior I would up the anti a bit with a correction especially with Dakota. She is very in your face and likes to I guess you can call it head-bunt me, but in the literal sense as well. But my training sessions with them are kept up beat and fun.

I also tried to explain that the different position of the collar had more of an affect on Forrest than before, making him more sensitive to the corrections that were the same type of pop as before.

Forrest is what I called an easy puppy because he follows verbal direction well. But he is slow to respond if there is anything else getting into his brain. It doesn’t take much to distract him from what he was doing, which will make him slow to respond to a sit command. It’s like he is about to and then pauses. It can be as simple as my wind chime blowing in the breeze. But also he just spaces out. It’s like he has no thought at all. Very different than Dakota. You do have to remember that I had Dakota first and she came with a handful of challenges for me. I had no idea what a high drive dog really meant. So I learned the complete opposite of Forrest before I got him. When he came to us, I knew very early on he was timid, but he was so easy in comparison. He always came when called, he stopped stealing shoes once he realized I didn’t like it. He was and still is very affectionate, and silly. And really didn’t give me any trouble with house manners. He was so easy that leave it, sit and come were the commands I used and he didn’t require me to say any other commands. But for whatever reason that changed, I guess he got older and seen Dakota was getting over and he figured he would try it too. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I did notice that Forrest responds to a command better out of a training session. I think the whole thing may be too white collared for him. Which goes to your point Anne that I’m not motivating him during that time. But I don’t think it’s anything I’m doing or not doing, I just think he may not like it, whether he feels bored, uncomfortable or stressed I’m not sure.

I will take what you suggested Anne. When it comes to his diet, you have made this point clear and I will look into something that will help his liver to up his serotonin level. And I am also considering the DVD you mentioned. I am interested in a lot of these suggestions and I don’t want you to think I’m blowing you off, but I got to know what I’m purchasing before I purchase it. And financially I have to be reserved. Believe me if I could just purchase them I would, but I can’t. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I do use other corrections besides popping a prong. I tried the tap on the shoulder, doesn’t work, the “hey”, only sometimes it’s effective (Forrest responds better, Dakota barely at all). A nudge on their side or a jerk on the flat collar will get their attention. I have never corrected my dogs with a prong where they would yelp or pull away from me, that is not my style. Nor is it required. One thing I have cut back on is asking commands, rather than mini training sessions throughout the day. This has something to do with not setting up a failure of a command being given. But I don’t think Forrest has a low pain tolerance, I don’t think he has a high pain tolerance either.

I did read the article “The Theory of Corrections…” just the other day, I found a lot of very helpful info in that article. But thanks for suggesting it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What is flooding? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Barbra it’s never too late to continue your training. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

How long have each of you been training dogs? I have for just about a year, with very very little knowledge prior to these pups.

Eh, not getting worked up here. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Just trying to help you out, is all.

I've have dogs for a while but was training them Koehler-like. So the pack leader stuff I've been doing all my life, but the motivational stuff just fairly recently. My recent pups have taught me all these things on how to make them obey faster and smoother and I have to tell you, it's getting me addicted to this thing. I'm looking at a Mal next. Then another GSD. My boyfriend thinks I'm nuts. "When will it stop?" he asks me. I tell him, "When we break up." <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Oh joy. Anyway I have a lot to learn still, I'm just sharing what has worked for me so far.

Flooding is a method of training where you force the dog to overcome his fear by making him face it; forcing them into an overwhelming situation. If my definition is wrong anyone can feel free to correct me, I've never used this method. I've assimilated it to my fear of bugs. Imagine my parents had dragged me to a nest of bees or spiders attempting to help me overcome my fear of them <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Angie, I know it's never too late to continue with Montana but I have two willing pupils I'd rather work with <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I'm happy having Montana take it easy and not get all hysterical on me, and I think he is too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well, I've had dogs all my life and been responsible for their training and care. My main experience is with labs and golden retrievers though. I'm new to the type of dogs I have now. I have about 4 years experience with them.

Kristine, I agree with positive motivation training. I also know that with some dogs, they require harder style corrections on occasion.

Indeed, some dogs require harder corrections than others. It is how you apply the correction that defines whether it's positive or negative training, i.e. the difference between giving the dog a reason why he shouldn't obey you, vs. giving the dog a reason to obey you. God, I make no sense.