Oh yes, I second or third what Connie said about timing! Now, I haven't bought Ed's DVD yet, so what I do might not be quite the same. My 16 month old Mal is on long line training right now. We've done training in the backyard with the 20-30 foot long line with recalls and stays. He gets a piece of cheese (which he loves) and praise when he comes and he gets corrected with the prong on the long line if he doesn't. For more distraction, we go out to a trail head where there are some bikers, joggers, walkers, other dogs, etc and I wait until there is just one distraction at a time (one biker or one person with an unleashed dog) before we do this. I'm gradually going to add in a few more as we go, but remember, the correction, just like the reward, must come at the right time, so by the time you walked 5-10 seconds over to your dog, it's probably mostly lost on him why his prong collar just got yanked. I understand why he growled now. That's why I have to be careful with some of the dogs I work with and train at the shelter I volunteer for because they have had their collars and leashes jerked unfairly their whole life and now don't like even getting a leash put on because they know they are about to be jerked around. The fact that the trainer doesn't use treats or long lines (especially since dogs around the age of our dogs have the attention spans of 15 year old boys, because that's essentially what they are) says that she is expecting too much too fast.

Judy, I would run as fast & as far away from that trainer as I could go. She must be a jerk (not to mention have allot of gall) to slap someone else's dog in the face. GEEEZZZEEE. If she tried that to one of my dogs, I think that she would have been visiting the local ER. She is VERY lucky that your dog has a sweet temperment. Clearly, your dog is not ready for the level of distractions & distance that you are asking him to do. It takes a long time & allot of training to teach a dog to be able to tolerate that level of distractions...It takes much more than most 13 month old dogs that are only worked a couple of short training sessions a day to be able to do. I'm sure that there are some exceptions to this, but it is not the average young dog that could do this with the amount of time that you claim that you spend on training. Connie, I believe, said that your corrections are not well timed. I think that is a fair statment. That and the dog is on overload with all the excess stimulas from the other dogs.
I can tell you that my female will growl & come rite up the leash at me if I am not fair or timely with her corrections. And she is a very hard dog, not one bit soft. And she would be right in feeling that I did her wrong & was not a proper pack leader.She can take a hard correction & never goes down in drive. So it is up to me to be very careful to make my corrections timely & approprtiate for the imfraction. It is soooo very important that your dog knows that you are a fair and consistant pack leader & that you are not asking more from you dog than he is able to give. You need to go back to basics & start over again in your training. Make very sure that you dog knows the commands (really knows) before he is corrected for an imfraction. When you add distractions they must be added slowly over time. It is not a process to be rushed. If you expect a reliable down stay from your dog....never increase distraction, time & distance at the same time. They all need to be added seperately. If you increase the distraction wait until he can do that with you close to him (next to him) When he can do that...then you can add the amount of time that you ask him to do it. (a couple of minutes) Then you can add the distance....move a few feet away from him & start all over again with the time & work that up to a couple of minutes. Keep increasing these 2 components at a very slow rate...day to weeks according to the dog....then go back to increasing the distraction level & start all over again with the time & distance. I hope that gives you a better picture of how the process goes. It would usually take many many months to have dog that can handle high levels of distractions with distance & time thrown in. My female will work or down stay in a warzone with other dogs, people running & kids screaming,fireworks,
things being tossed as her or near her (empty soda/water bottles, balls etc) etc etc etc.....but I have spent time
working her as much as 5-6 times a day to get to that point. ( she has been able to do this with this level of distraction since she was about 1 3/4 yrs old. My male is almost as good & will be equal to her by the end of the summer or sooner. It is not something that can be rushed. Each dog, just like children, learn at their own rate of speed & you can't change this. If you try to rush....you do not get consistant results. So slow down & go back to basics for a while & make you dog think that training is fun again & not something to fear or you will totally ruin your relationship with him for good. He needs to feel that he can trust you & your leadership. Good luck.

Thanks Anne. Good advice. I'll be doing everything everyone has mentioned.

Poor Gunnar, looking back on the mayhem in each class, I feel like such a brute expecting him to have the ability to perform. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> .

Woody, and Candi, thanks for your answer. I think I was looking at this differently. Judy was frantic, which equates to partially hysterical to me, screams for help. The instructor reacted; leveled the dog. Not an ideal reaction obviously, but I can see how it happened... I didn't look at this as Judy's trainer leveling the dog because it wouldn't comply, but because the dog was dangling in the air, in front of her face, snarling and showing it's teeth at her. Someone needed to take control of the situation, and sometimes people act before they think. It probably looked like a very serious situation to her. Keep in mind, she was distracted by the other class members and couldn't see exactly what was going on or how it transpired. She may be a nazi, she may not be. She may be a good trainer, she may not be. I wasn't there so I'm not going to try to figure it out.

If the dog's been in training since it was 8 weeks, why wouldn't it understand what's expected at this point? My impression upon reading this was that the dog gets distracted by other dogs and refuses to comply in a timely manner. At what age, given the dogs background of school since 8 weeks, would it be feasible to expect the dog to comply with the commands?

Judy, what is your feeling on this? What do you think of how the trainer reacted given the circumstances? Nobody's answered what you should have done instead I don't think... I re-read this three times to check, and if I missed it I apologize. Unfair corrections are going to happen now and then. What I would have done was given a little high pitched shriek with a shocked voice saying, "How dare you?!" then taken the dog away from the group and brought him through all his obedience commands. Then I would have taken him a little farther away again and put him in a down stay and rejoined the circle of other people and watched him. The rest of the day I would have given him very little attention unless he earned it. I don't know if that's right or wrong, but that's what I have done. You can probably leave out the how dare you and replace it with a no <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> If I was home when the dog growled all I had to do was turn on the high pitched voice and go on and on and soon he'd be squinting. My dog will do ANYTHING to avoid listening to me in that voice.

You have a velcro dog, you can also use your attention as a tool to keep him in line. Make him earn it. NILIF is a good thing to focus more heavily on after a growling incident, in case you've lessened using those methods.

I think Ed's DVD's are a good idea too. They'll give you a better barometer to compare trainers in real life to, so you know if a trainer is reasonable or not.

The ruckus that day must have given the whole class something to talk about afterwards lol <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> What did the other class members think of the way the trainer reacted?

Barbara,

Again you're saying exactly what I'm thinking...

"If the dog's been in training since it was 8 weeks, why wouldn't it understand what's expected at this point? My impression upon reading this was that the dog gets distracted by other dogs and refuses to comply in a timely manner. At what age, given the dogs background of school since 8 weeks, would it be feasible to expect the dog to comply with the commands?"

I thought so until I started this post.

No, no one has answered what I should have done at that time. They've told me what I should do from now on though. I like very much your idea of taking him away from the me and the group, sort of a time out. He would hate it. I think it's a fabulous idea.

What's NILIF? I've seen that on this board many times.

Regarding the other pet owners, forget it. They are annoying to me most of the time because, although they are very nice, they don't have an interest in their pets progress. It appears to be a social setting for them and when they talk, which is constantly, it's about everything but dogs. UGH!

Regarding her nazi-like approach, I'm very ok with it. To me, that's better than training in too lenient a style. However, it is now clear that her expectations may be too high for my dog. I am not faint of heart. I will and do have no problem speaking up if I disagree with something. But prior to this thread, I thought what she was doing was right (with regards to her expectations). Now I know my dog is just not ready for 6 wild dogs running loose.

If all the dogs were exceptionally behaved, maybe my dog would have a chance to succeed. They jump on the owners, they growl at each other, there has never been even one 30-second timeframe in which any of the other dogs will sit and stay when told. Gunnar is actually better than most of them. But considering how much he loves the other dogs and the fact that the other dogs almost never listen to the owners, I guess it is not the place for him.

I do like her and will use her in private lessons but will remain aware of all your opinions of her.

NILIF = Nothing In Life Is Free

So, make the dog sit/down/look whatever for everything...dinner...treats...a pet...grooming...anything and everything, always.

Hope that helps!

NILIF


If you remove him from a class setting, how will you get him to ignore other dogs? He needs a reliable focus command for when you see his attention roving.

Good luck Judy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You'll get Gunner where you want him to be eventually <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Judy,
To answer your question.....NIFIF means: Nothing in life is free. My dogs live a great deal of their lives that way. They have to sit & watch me before they are let out the door to "take care of business", at meal times they have to sit then I place their dish down & then they have to watch me & then are released to eat their meal. They have to sit before entering the house, before & after getting into & out of the truck, sit & "geblaut" before getting a treat. I could go on & on but you can get the general idea. This helps re-enforce obedience & also that I call the shots in every aspect of their lives. My dogs also do get time to run & play outside without or I guess that I should say minimal rules...not eating the plants or the garden hose etc. They also get some time to run free in a couple of the fields that I work them in, but I also do obedience with them both their together off leash also. I will put them both in a down stay & throw a toy & send one to get it while the other stays down & then rotate the dogs. I also will have them down next to one another & then have one stay & call the other to the front of me (10 ft past the other) & then down that dog & then call the other dog to me past that one & down that dog & then begin again with the 1st dog. I do many scenarios like this to again re-enforece obedience while free & off lease. And to be able to work with the distraction of the other dog moving around them.
As far as what you should have done when you dog was growling...not yelling & advancing things further would have been more helpful. You need to stay calm & focused. A good pack leader doesn't freak out, (he stays calm, no matter what)....even if you are a bit out of control...you don't want to communicate that to the dog. That's (understandable under the circumstances) but just not good pack leader behavior. Like I had said before, just take a step back (like someone not too long ago told me, you can always go back to basics & start over). It is not worth destroying your relationship with your dog. Your dog sounds like a 'soft' dog & getting rough with him is the worst thing that you could do, if that is the case, being harsh with him (I don't mean don't correct him if you are sure that he knows the command given & chooses not to comply)WILL destroy your relationship!!

Thanks, Barbara, I wanted to post that linc, but for some reason, it wasn't coming up when I searched for it. Hopefully it will help Judy get better control of her dog in a calm & non confrontational way.

 Quote:

or if all the other dogs get up and run, eventually he will too.

Why are these other dogs being allowed to get up and run during a stay???? Obviously these dogs are NOT ready to stay for the length of time and distance the instructor and other owners expect of them. All the dogs should be on leash during the stays so they are unable to get up and run. How are you supposed to teach your dog to stay with other dogs running loose?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> That is just setting your poor boy up to fail.

When your dog is older and already trained, then you can use loose dogs as a distraction to proof your stays, but doing so with a young dog while in the beginning stages of obedience are just asking for trouble.

I personally would be looking for a new instructor. It sounds like this one doesn't know what she is doing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />