Oh please, do let's get a few things clear, by all means "mon ami" -- Ed Frawley & Cindy Easton Rhodes (with much more experience than you boast) are THE authorities when it comes to e-collar training at Leerburg, not me & certainly not you, LOL

And if you're honestly that excited about videos, why don't you just put aside all your posturing & do the dogs you train a BIG favor by watching Ed's e-training DVD -- or are you really so afraid to learn newer & better, more effective & more humane techniques ?

All I know about you is what you've posted on this board, to wit:

You train using various versions of escape training/avoidance training to teach the dog how "to work at turning off the electricity" -- Those old school protocols are outdated & are correctly classified as "yank & crank" FORCED compliance, right along with the Koehler Method, Nick...

You can have all of good ol' Mr. Koehler you want -- I simply prefer Mr. Frawley's methods, any day <:-)

 Quote: mike sanchez

I haven't seen the e-collar DVD, but I would think it's based on the assumption that your dog has already gone through the learning phase of training and fully understands what she's being asked to do, which is NOT the case here evidently.

Mike, you would be right in your first assumption but not in your second. If you go back and read my posts, you will see that Miko knows all too well exactly what she is being asked to do (recall, or come in this case). She has got only 2 more weeks to go in AKC Canine Good Citizen and stands a good chance of passing the first time through. No doubt she can use some drive and focus training, but she certainly understands what "come" means.

 Quote: candi campbell

Oh please, do let's get a few things clear, by all means "mon ami" -- Ed Frawley & Cindy Easton Rhodes (with much more experience than you boast) are THE authorities when it comes to e-collar training at Leerburg, not me & certainly not you, LOL

And if you're honestly that excited about videos, why don't you just put aside all your posturing & do the dogs you train a BIG favor by watching Ed's e-training DVD -- or are you really so afraid to learn newer & better, more effective & more humane techniques ?

All I know about you is what you've posted on this board, to wit:

You train using various versions of escape training/avoidance training to teach the dog how "to work at turning off the electricity" -- Those old school protocols are outdated & are correctly classified as "yank & crank" FORCED compliance, right along with the Koehler Method, Nick...

You can have all of good ol' Mr. Koehler you want -- I simply prefer Mr. Frawley's methods, any day <:-)

Again Cindy - you don't know me or how I train. Nice try though. Whenever someone doesn't have the knowledge or abiltiy to debate a point the insults fly - that says a lot about your position.

I offered the original poster a simple answer to his question. You are certainly entitled to disagree - and I don't mind and it doesn't make a difference to me if you do - except for the fact that you are trying to condescend to someone who you know nothing about.

I notice that you never made mention of my offer to video our respective dogs in various scenarios. your silence speaks loudly.

I also notice how you try to lump people into categories such as yank and crank and Koehler without knowing anything about them. I certainly says a lot about you and your postion that you couldn't simply respond to this without making things perosonal.

In any even - I will make you the same offer one last time. You certainly should be able to show me up considering that your knowledge is so vastly superior and mine is according to you so lacking.

Can I please get you to answer one question:

You mentioned that you had to correct yor dog(s) only once for non compliance and since then they have worked remote free.
When your dog didn't respond to you and you stimmed your dog - and then your dog came - why did he come back? What lesson did he learn?

BTw - your dogs are working out of avoidance too if you have used any force on them as well. You may not comprehend that or want to accept that fact but if it required any force at all to get them to do something and since forcing them they are more compliant - than avoidance is at play. You can dance around it all you want and make personal insults to those you know nothing about - trying to distract opthers from the fact that you don't understand what you are arguing but at the end of the day - niether you nor I are exempt from the pricipals of learning and behavior.


BTW - since this is getting so off tangent - here is a copy of my original reply to Scott :


<quote>Scott,
Collar conditioning is a process that means you take the dog through the whole concept of working to turn off the collar. Some people will tell you that they have a method that is different than escape training but at the end of the day it is all escape training. In other words the dog works to turn off the stim.

From the sounds of things she has not been through that process and while it could very well take longer for someone with a dog who is wise to a long line - it shouldn't be skipped.
I would suggest taking your dog somewhere where the environment around her draws her away from you for a little bit so that you have the opportunity to call her back. You can then stim and guide her with her long line.
In your original post when you said that you corrected her with the collar and she didn't come - she went the other way. If you repeat this enough times she will think that there are several options to turning off the collar - one being running away - the opther may be sitting and doing nothing.. etc...
Whatever the dog is doing when the srtim stops can become a learned lesson and creates problems that you'll have to work through later.

If the collar is properly fitted - And you have already established a level then it is going to be working without the ability to guide the dog through the process that you are seeing creating the problems 99 percent of the time.

Something to think about is that when training with a line - your correction gives the dog direction - whereas the remote is foereign to the dog and does not supply any hint of a direction. The leash correction spell out sit, down , come etc .. by way of the direction given on line - when you are working with a remote and a dog who is green to it all - you need to couple the line with the stim to help the dog fit the pieces fo the puzzle together.


I have a malamute here in the kennel for training that is also on a 1700 NCP and he is working on the regular contact for that collar and I am going to assume that if he works on the regular contact points your akita would be fine as well.

One last point is when you went out to establish a level and found her working level and stopped there - that can create confusion in a dog. The dog feels the stim a few times and then it stops. Why did it happen? Why did it stop? It becomes inconsequential for the dog or even worse stressful. It's preferable to find the level and move on to work so the dog can make sense of what is going on and what the collar signifies. Especially for a dog who is just getting her feet wet.

Nick
</quote>

 Quote: scott traurig

Mike, you would be right in your first assumption but not in your second. If you go back and read my posts, you will see that Miko knows all too well exactly what she is being asked to do (recall, or come in this case). She has got only 2 more weeks to go in AKC Canine Good Citizen and stands a good chance of passing the first time through. No doubt she can use some drive and focus training, but she certainly understands what "come" means.

Scott, you may be right, but isn't that still moving a little fast? How many 8 month old pups out there are ready to be titled? I know now why you resorted to the e-collar. You're trying to get this dog ready in the 2 short wks that you have, which is why I wouldn't recommend it.

Training takes time. I wouldn't rush it. I would go back a step and find out what her weak spots are. You said you think she could use some drive building, so work on that. You should master that step anyway before moving on to corrections. There's a differnce between a dog that understands a command and a dog that follows a command happily. Good luck!

By the way, I'm not knocking you at all, I've made a sh-t load of mistakes along the way.

A couple things I want to say...

First off, Excellent post Mike. I think maybe things are being rushed for this dog. She is young, and Akitas (I have trained several) seem to be more aloof, idependant and harder to motivate than a lot of other breeds.

I would spend more time building drive for whatever works for this dog. I would probably manipulate her most valuable resource right now---FOOD. Meals would come from me, one bite at a time for coming to me. This is something that can be phased out once she is in the "habit" of coming quickly and happily. Dogs understand this, some quicker than others.

If she doesn't want to come for her food, then she can skip a meal.

If her food drive isn't very high, then I can assure you that if you do this correctly that will change and then you have a highly valued resource to use as a reward.

IF this was my dog, she would have to do something for her meals, her access to outside, the car, EVERYTHING.

I wouldn't sacrifice my training principles for a CGC, don't skip steps in your foundation just to get this suffix behind her name. Your relationship with your dog and a fast, happy, reliable recall for the rest of her life is much more important!!

As always, JMO!

Hi Scott. I'm sure many would consider me way under qualified to weigh in - and they would probably be right. (But LOL when did that ever stop me!)

I will preface my comments by saying that we train (and I'm new) for SchH sport performance. In my short tenure trying to figure all of this out (with GSD's personally, but we have several other breeds in training here) I've seen a lot more dogs get messed up by "pushing" too fast, than I've seen incredibly talented dogs succeed early, with good quality work in OB or anything else. (ask Old Earth Dog Bob about the protection test at the October 2006 WDA NASS)

If a primary goal is to earn titles though AKC or other sport venues, I would encourage you to take a step back in your time line goals. 8 months old is VERY young - I would compare that to a GSD (or other breed working at SchH) going for a BH at 8 months old (well, that's not even allowed, but please bear with me...). While many dogs can be pushed, and potentially over corrected to "force" a point earning performance on the field, very few IMO are capable of beautiful, happy, drive based performance work to earn the necessary points on the field at that age. I second the motion suggesting that you get the "Building Drive and Focus" DVD.

If you are looking for happy, quality, pretty work from your dog, I think you will get a lot farther by convincing your dog that the rewards and praise are HUGE by responding to your commands - rather than the look (and poor response) you get by getting your dog to comply through avoidance of correction.

Even for a newbie like me, it is easy to spot SchH sport dogs where correction avoidance is more important than the possibility of reward and praise. The WORST example of this I have ever seen is a dog who literally crawls on his belly during the required heeling to the blind in protection work. The obvious over use of the e-collar to "rush things along" is quite obvious, even to a newbie like me. This dog was totally "pushed" to become a SchH3 dog by the time he was 2 years old. I will always wonder what this dog (and many other dogs) could have been given more positive training circumstances, and more time.

Correction around here (regardless of method) is introduced VERY slowly. There are a couple of reasons for that. 1) We believe it is better for the dog to be motivated to perform the desired thing rather than forced to do it. 2) Our trainer is quite aware he is dealing primarily with novice handlers, who are less likely to issue a correction, and subsequent reward/praise with optimal timing. 3) Distraction is introdued gradually with optimal possibility of success (dog and handler experience considered). I know your questions are focused on the recall, but how is you work going on the heeling, and distractions in that situation?

I'm learning a lot from this thread, and hope I haven't offended anyone with "newbie" remarks. I'm very excited about the progress all of our teams are making here by taking things more slowly, and only moving ahead and introducing new things when both the dog AND the handler are ready for it. And with new handlers, it seems to me that the dogs need to be even MORE secure and confident in step "A" before they move on to step "B" together.

I've seen more than 1 dog (many more than 1) run off the trial field back to the car/crate. The foundation work, teaching the dog that THE COOLEST place to be is right there with you, is a critical philosphy of our foundation work. (and I realize others might disagree, and that's fine)

Even though my view and experience is quite limited, I see immense value in taking your time with things, and not rushing the dogs. The greatest/smartest dog in the world will certainly challenge a more novice handler - and IMHO, that's all the more reason to take your time.

Respectfully,

Beth

Beth/Cindy/Mike,

I appreciate all your inputs. I, too, am learning a lot from this thread. Mostly it makes me think things through more thoroughly, rather than producing any major revelations.

Again let me further clarify:

First, I'm not seeking titles for the dog. I have no desire to compete her in any way, shape or form. But I do want her to earn her Canine Good Citizen certification and be well trained, well behaved and most importantly, happy. I've always thought a well trained dog was a happy dog because they usually know what you want and are not confused.

Second, she is most definitely not being "pushed" for CGC. She does all her exercises just like all the other dogs, on a prong (some are using a choke) and a lead. As I've said before, she is ring-wise and does pretty good in class. If she doesn't make it this time around that's fine, we'll just repeat the class again later or do some remedial/additional training, perhaps with some private instruction. As you say, heck, she's only 8 months old!

Third, the reason we want to accomplish recall with the ecollar is actually to make her a happier, safer dog. She *likes* to be outside with us. She *likes* to be free of "that silly lead". It is arguably safer for her to be able to run and play without the chance of that lead getting caught on something as she drags it around behind her. I do not want to rely on fencing. So the *only* thing we want to train her for on the ecollar right now is recall. I'd say we are about half-way there. It has nothing to do with CGC and in fact is not even necessary in that context.

Cindy & Beth: your points about motivation are well taken. That is probably my biggest issue. I've mentioned this before but let me repeat it here, because now that we are on this particular topic perhaps you've got some good tips for me in this area. I could really use them, because Miko does not seem to be easily motivated and/or eager to please.

Miko is not motivated at all by praise or love. She is weakly motivated by any normal training treat. I've tried dozens of things, commercial as well as home made. String cheese seems to work the best but still not great. She is strongly motivated by a meal, and she has learned to do a great "stay" this way. She is highly motivated by cream cheese. I can get her to do a picture perfect instant down or just about anything else for cream cheese. I haven't figured out a way to use cream cheese for most training, though! Miko is moderately motivated by play and access to the outdoors.

Miko only receives rewards for performing some behavior. If she comes over for attention she must sit first, etc. We mix things up so she doesn't fall into unwanted patterns, for example dinner tonight may be earned by a good down-stay, or it might be earned by a down, followed by an up, followed by a sit. We want her to do what we ask, not assume or guess. She is very good at this game and understands all commands.

Finally she is only moderately motivated by corrections. Yes, her response to these is weak as well.

This attitude is characteristic of the Akita breed. So how does one go about building up a dog's attitude so that it is open to motivation?

Hi again Scott. Thank you for treating my post with respect - even though I am a complete and total novice.

Quote from you:

First, I'm not seeking titles for the dog. I have no desire to compete her in any way, shape or form. But I do want her to earn her Canine Good Citizen certification .."

CGC is a title. I urge you to back off on your expectations for your dog in that realm, and focus more on your bond and positive training experience with your dog that might serve you better in the long run.

The dogs in training here "believe" in their rewards - whether those are tugs for a chase, tugs for a fight, balls for a chase or fight. Food is an option - just not an option we have employed other than on the track.

Patience is a virtue.

I challenge you. If your Akita becomes convinced that the reward and FUN that comes from you will ALWAYS be stronger than your correction (whatever the vehicle/collar type used) I bet she will start coming to you. Espeicially at 8 months.

I could be wrong though...I hope you will read another post I made about a dog/handler team Dante and Max. They IMO have broken through some major training barriers. With a dog as smart as yours, you could too. Take care - and please look to the positive!

Beth

Please tell us more about Max and Dante! I found the post but it didn't say much other than they were making breakthroughs.

BTW, working at a level of 50 now and using the continuous button to generate a slightly longer nick (nick+ :-) we are getting a good recall. She's still making some mistakes but things are sharpening up nicely.

Again I think we made a very basic mistake in that we took the DVD's advice on how to set the working level in a way that had us using much too low a level for Miko. The newness of it for her, our trying to find it in a low drive situation and our desire to be "kind" had us at much too low a level. The level and duration we are at now works reliably but does not cause her to vocalize or even jerk her head. We have not fully validated it by using our neighbor's 2 year old as a distraction yet, though :-)

Scott,

being weakly motivated for food tells me your dog isn't hungry enough.

I would put her on a routine of only receiving her daily nourishment one bit at a time, through recalls (since that seems to be your issue at this time)

It's so simple, she no longer gets a regular meal or she gets a small meal after coming to you enthusiastically. If you do it right, in a very short time you will have a dog showing you drive.
I have trained many dogs, of many breeds with different drive levesl and when I control the food, I become a much more interesting person to these dogs, even dogs that seemingly were not interested in food before.

Most dogs in this country are overfed and underexercised, so when people tell me their dogs don't like treats or are uninterested in them I tell them to let the dog spend a week with me. (just kidding)

Manipulating her food, and using your other tools (the long line and ecollar) will make a huge difference. I personally would not use corrections before trying to build drive to it's highest level in all areas. Building drive may take some time but it will make training more fun for your dog, and more fun for you because a dog with drive usually is more eager to try and will need fewer corrections... usually