Quote: lisa harrison

Mike,

Ganging up is an understatement. I give one opinion or make a comment it turns into a 5 page thread. I am inexperienced in PP & bitework, I have done very little. I admit to this. You have to start somewhere to learn. That is why I joined this forum, for information, guidance, networking and your experiences. Not to defend myself on every comment or statement I make. How many people are actually professional pet or K9 handlers making a living and how many are sports enthusiasts? There will always be debates among dog trainers and the tools that they choose to use. Hey, whatever works for that particular dog. Of course the dog doesn't want to be corrected. That is why eventually you will need no corrections at all. The dog needs to understand what you want and he does it. If there is no consequence (the correction)why bother doing the command. I doubt the puppy likes his mother biting the scruff of his neck, but she does it to show him what she wants. Once he knows, he usually obeys.Your treat is like my praise.I misunderstood, I did not realize you did actually give a correction, i just thought you told the dog to do the command and when he finally did it...on the 3rd or 4th time, he got the treat.
Why do you say the dog doesn't respect his handler?

It only looks like we are ganging up on you trust me you should see the responses i got when i first joined this forum.

Part of the problem with the forum is it is way to easy to miscommunicate what you mean.

Just like what happened with us. I said i use treats when im doing OB work and you didn't have the whole story. You are very correct about being debates, there will always be debates. Someone said this and i forgot who but they said half the reason there will always be debates in dog training is the fact of different terminology between different handlers and different trainers.

As far as the dog not respecting his handler. For the most part its just somthing i cane see in the dog. He only works to avoid pain and get his pay. His handler treats him like a pet and the dog is already natrualy to soft and the handler isn't helping.

Edit: Lisa, i was assuming you where talking about pets when you said you take the leash.

Edited by Michael West (08/26/2007 09:45 PM)
Edit reason: too add remark

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: lisa harrison

It is kind of like bribing your dog to obey.

This might sound like semantics, but bribery and rewarding are very different.

There are a lot of essays and articles about lures, bribes, and rewards, and how they differ, but here's a short video that demonstrates the three very succinctly:

http://hobbies.expertvillage.com/videos/dog-obedience-lures-rewards-bribes.htm

Thanks for posting this video. I had never seen it before and it is a good sum up it!

 Quote: Ingrid Rosenquist

Thanks for posting this video. I had never seen it before ....

I never had before today, either....

I was looking for a particular web article I like that explains lures, rewards, and bribes, and I came across that video clip.

Now I have it bookmarked.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: Ingrid Rosenquist

Thanks for posting this video. I had never seen it before ....

I never had before today, either....

I was looking for a particular web article I like that explains lures, rewards, and bribes, and I came across that video clip.

Now I have it bookmarked.

yup simple things we all know but it was a nice brake down of it

 Quote:

As a matter of fact, yes, I do expect someone elses dog to work for me, for verbal & physical praise. Because he respects me, not because I have a piece of chopped up hotdog along with my clicker.My leash correction means stop what you are doing and pay attention to me. I am open minded and have used other types of training. It depends on the dog's personality and the owners personality. All my dogs work for ME,most dogs, not all, want to please you. I have used food as rewards in the past for some clients dogs. I am just saying treat training is not as reliable as leash & collar. I used to treat/clicker train and all the dogs did was whine & beg for food. If I didn't have a treat, i was screwed!Intermittitly take away their treat, youv'e taken away the reward. My praise is always there no matter where I am. My dogs will work for me because they know I am the one in charge

Lisa,

It is true that there are many misunderstandings on these kinds of boards. I myself have been misunderstood on occasion. I hope you did not mistake me for someone who is against corrections. As Connie said, corretions and rewards are not mutaually exclusive in the world of dog training, at least not on this web board

As far as the clicker comments I would have you know I had never tried one, thinking they were not a meathod any 'serious' dog person would use. Well, I happened to have a communication problem with my dog concerning a mediocrely (okay I know that is not a word ) perfomed obedience command and through the advice of some people on this board I kept an open mind and retrained the problematic move with a new command and a cliker

Well, I have discontined the use of the clicker for that command now that it is understood, and have worked it back into my obedience routine and happy to report things are going great! The dog responds to the command first time even if I offer no lure, bribe, or reward! I NEVER thought I would try a clicker, but I did and my mind was opened to another training tool in my tool box (I did use marker training beforehand).

When I got my most recent dog I also thought it should work just for me, with no rewards offered. We were very successfull at our first course, and my young dog had learned our whole ob routine very well at a young age. At that course I saw a LE officer (who was there as a search instructor) take his dog out of his truck for a little ob session in the distance. I was super impressed by the dog's precison and attitude and noticed he was using a toy (kong or ball on a rope?) as a reward.

I had never seen a Sch competition or sport dog. This was a full profile working dog, and what I liked best was that the handler and dog were having FUN together! This 5 minutes changed my outlook on how I was working my dog. Now you can bet that this fellow's dog MUST obey even when there will not be a reward offered! This does not mean they never use rewards other than praise. I have even had hot dog spitting advice from long time LE handlers. I seek advice from handlers (LE and civilian) who's perfomance I admire, both in ob and search work.

Last course I was at, instead of just a pass I got "wow look at that drive for the retreive object!" and "awesome focus on the heel!". I changed my ob methods and the LE took notice of us, floppy ears and all There is always room for improvement though in my eyes, as long as we are both enjoying it.

I think that even 10 years ago this type of training would have been mostly frowned upon in LE around here. I would love to ask some LE handlers if they see a decline in overall performance of their full profile dogs since rewards other than praise became an acceptable training tool.

I would like to say that although this is my first working dog he has gained the respect of the pointy eared dog owning examiners. The training I do does have REAL consequences (especially in our winter job). I AM new at it, and like you I know it is hard to be taken seriously when you are just starting out

At least you have a GSD, not a Duck Toller!

I am just telling these stories to let you know how much I have learned already. I have SO MUCH MORE to learn. You don't have to agree with anything I or anyone else here says, and you obvoiusly have a method that works for you I am easily offended at times, and people DO disagree with me but I TRY to keep an open mind and do research and try stuff behind the scenes to see what might work for me and mine I am here to learn after all.

 Quote:

All my dogs work for ME,most dogs, not all, want to please you. I have used food as rewards in the past for some clients dogs. I am just saying treat training is not as reliable as leash & collar. I used to treat/clicker train and all the dogs did was whine & beg for food. If I didn't have a treat, i was screwed!Intermittitly take away their treat, youv'e taken away the reward. My praise is always there no matter where I am. My dogs will work for me because they know I am the one in charge.

Work is relative, of course. The degree of effort needs a corresponding pay-off. This isn't a controversial concept for any other animal or human.

The problem is the human ego.

Pigeons, rats, goldfish etc can be trained to do surpisingly complex tasks. I probably don't need to mention the impracticality of corrections here. Point is, when we're talking about these kinds of animals, somehow the things never go down the road of ego and principal. Psychologists and hobbyists never equate a lack of performance in a pigeon with an personal affront, or disrespect.

Movin' on up the intelligence scale, have you seen the AMAZING things marine mammals do? From Seaworld to the military, respect is a red-herring (pun intended), and these animals do indeed undertake serious work. These trainers need performance, not a satiated ego.

Now, our poor dogs. Steam-rolled into varying degrees of human pegs because:
-They live with us
-We condition to behave in a way we call having "manners".
-Due to being so common, people think behavioral conditioning somehow started with, and is proprietary to them.

Yes, there are important considerations to be made for the social, pack-oriented dog.

I'm not commenting on treats vs. praise vs. corrections. Not the point here. I'm saying it can be a mistake to not first understand the levels of cognitive functioning at the most primitive levels, which apply to all organisms. It helps to strip away the narcissism of it all, and spares your ANIMALS (then dog, then breed, then buddy...a la Ceasar Milan) a lot of miscommunication and "grief".

I am so glad I opted to go ahead and post the foo-fah experience with the ball in the traffic situation. What a great debate with insight to great information! I was expecting more of "It's ok Michele, we all make mistakes..." but this is a great thread!

 Quote: steven lepic

....

Work is relative, of course. The degree of effort needs a corresponding pay-off. This isn't a controversial concept for any other animal or human.

The problem is the human ego.

Pigeons, rats, goldfish etc can be trained to do surpisingly complex tasks. I probably don't need to mention the impracticality of corrections here. Point is, when we're talking about these kinds of animals, somehow the things never go down the road of ego and principal. Psychologists and hobbyists never equate a lack of performance in a pigeon with an personal affront, or disrespect.

Movin' on up the intelligence scale, have you seen the AMAZING things marine mammals do? From Seaworld to the military, respect is a red-herring (pun intended), and these animals do indeed undertake serious work. These trainers need performance, not a satiated ego.

Now, our poor dogs. Steam-rolled into varying degrees of human pegs because:
-They live with us
-We condition to behave in a way we call having "manners".
-Due to being so common, people think behavioral conditioning somehow started with, and is proprietary to them.

Yes, there are important considerations to be made for the social, pack-oriented dog.

I'm not commenting on treats vs. praise vs. corrections. Not the point here. I'm saying it can be a mistake to not first understand the levels of cognitive functioning at the most primitive levels, which apply to all organisms. It helps to strip away the narcissism of it all, and spares your ANIMALS (then dog, then breed, then buddy...a la Ceasar Milan) a lot of miscommunication and "grief".

Wow - big ditto here! Great post Steven.

How many poor dogs get abused because of the human ego - you obey me, respect me, do what I say or else. I agree with Steven that dog training is about the performance of the dog, not about satisfying the handler's ego or his need for respect from the dog.

Going about it that way makes the handler's focus the dog and what the dog understands and how well he performs what he understands. Occasionally I've felt that ego wanting to rise up in me with my dog when I get it stuck in my craw that he's not respecting me about something, and can say it's always felt wrong. I'm not the center of the training, my dog is the center of the training. The training is about the dog.

Well said, Steven and Sandy.

QUOTE:
Lisa, but my gut is that you're talking PET dogs. Most pets will go along with your whims rather than get popped with a leash. Many working dogs (worth a damn) will come right up that leash and pop you in the face for yanking them around, since they do not even KNOW you, let alone respect you. Please be very careful applying this school of thought to working dogs. END QUOTE

Yes, I am referring to pet dogs, remember I am a dog obedience trainer. You have to occasionally take the leash from a client and actually show them how something is done.We worked several dogs at the school, however these were dogs just in the beginning stages of bitework.