Quote: angela burrell

Robbin,

You cannot walk in after the fact, see your dogs looking "guilty" and expect them to know why you are angry.

Agreed!

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This is akin to the old housebreaking rule - if you find a mess on the floor and did not catch your dog in the act, it is pointless to punish/get mad at/yell at your dog as he does not associate the act of urinating in the house with your anger. You MUST correct within 1.5 *seconds* of the act, otherwise do not correct. All you are doing is destroying your bond with your dogs.

Agreed! However, I did not find the chicken thing until well after I had gotten home. "She" knew what she had done and knew that because I am actually SO PREDICTABLE that she was in trouble. Even though I had no idea about it at the time. She is Satan and no matter what anyone says, I know better!

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Your dogs are acting submissive because they see your body language getting angry. They have learned that you are unpredictable and when you make that angry body language they are going to get yelled at. They do not know why, only that it is going to happen. What they are doing is called "appeasement" not "guilt" - dogs do not feel guilt. They see their pack leader angry and they try to soothe your anger by acting submissive, hoping to make you somehow less angry. They do not and can not associate your anger with the chicken they ate 20 minutes ago.

Agreed! I will say, in all honesty that my older two dogs have a different relationship with me than Levi. They have learned to be wary of my actions because I was not educated as I am now to dogs and their behaviors. I have tried very hard in the recent years to rectify this act of shame. However, only "she" behaved submissively, therefore I don't think that my "dogs" are trying to appease me. The other two were as normal as could be AND at the time, because I knew not of the crime, there wasn't any "body language" You are right though, if I had known, there for sure would have been body language.

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The next time you find a chicken wrapper, put the dogs in the yard, roll up a newspaper and hit yourself for not watching them better. Yell in a pillow if you have to but it is not fair to yell at the dogs.

Instead, I will roll up a newspaper and hit my son!! How bout that? Since he is the one that didn't kennel the dogs like he was supposed to! Besides, I believe I have given the impression that I was running around my home yelling like a crazy person with eyes bulging and hair pulling, lol. No, no, no..I simply picked up the chicken wrapper, looked at the dogs (yes, they were all watching me as it was feeding time) said in a very deep stern voice "who did this??" they all bailed to their kennels. I walked up behind them, closed the doors, locked them saying something like...uh huh, you better kennel up, in a very normal voice. Still, I know you are right, so I will take your scolding in a humble tone.

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Also, as a certified food handler, I can assure you that what people are saying about thawing your meat is true. Thawing on the counter is dangerous and any restaurant caught doing this would be put out of business. You should thaw your meat in the fridge overnight. Yes it takes longer but it is much safer.

If you insist on thawing your meat at room temperature, and not watching your dogs, I like the idea of putting it in the oven.

I will take this advice to heart and I thank you for it.

Friends??? LOL! You still love me don't you? After all, I am a "reforming" idiot, remember??

mumbles: big meanie pants as I sweep up what's left of my self esteem

 Quote: robbinmann

...AND at the time, because I knew not of the crime, there wasn't any "body language" You are right though, if I had known, there for sure would have been body language.

LOL! You copied me.

Glad to see that you are actually not punishing them after the fact and acting like a crazy person...even if Satan DOES know what she did....

 Quote: jenni williams

but I'm not sure that saying they have no idea what they did is wrong is true. I think that is serious underestimation of a dog's capacity for thought, but then again, I think many common ideas about dogs underestimate them. IMO/IME, to say that a dog can only remember something for a few seconds is ridiculous if you have ever really paid attention to a dog. I have a dog that someone flanked once, 3 years ago. You'd be hard pressed to get near his flank today, although it only happened once. I have a sneak or two like Robbin describes, only one of mine actually runs up to me all submissive and affectionate and silly when he's done something wrong, and I haven't even seen it yet or haven't acknowledged it, so the body language theory doesn't always apply. When my dog ate my bird, he was nowhere to be found when I came home. I didn't even know he'd eaten the bird...he did, and he knew it was wrong. Did I say anything to him? Nope, just cleaned up the few remaining feathers.

So, saying that punishing a dog way after the fact is unfair is true, but I have dogs like Robbin is describing, and call it what you will, but they absolutely know not to do certain things when I'm watching...because they know they would be corrected...because they remember the last time they were corrected for that very thing. No, it's not "guilt" per se, but it is a realization and recollection of a screw-up that Mom isn't going to like. Maybe it's simple apprehension, but if they have that, then doesn't that mean they remember what they did???

I totally agree with this. I used to have a dog that was the most well behaved dog and extremely smart. But every so often, she would do something she knew she shouldn't have. I could always tell when I came home. It was like she knw she had been bad, but was trying to act like she was a good girl so I wouldn't notice, which made me notice. I used to say she looked guilty, even though people constantly say dogs don't feel guilt. They feel something very close, call it what you will. They KNOW, even when we don't know yet or haven't reacted or shown any signs.

Hi robbin: I can give the dogs version of this: there are two, one is this for the new dog that doesn't know counters are off limits, "Look my master left me a special treat on the counter! Man, I am going to climb up there and eat it!!!
and the other one with the dog who knows better: she is gone, I am hungry and I want that food, so let's go...we can blame it on the cats anyway! Ha! Just kidding! I have put my food in a plastic container when I had cats and once I had a dog who took things from the counter just for the fun of it. She ate my bible once and ate the old testament out of it, and once climbed on the stove, (I do not know how , she did this as a puppy) and got down a bottle of excedrin pm, she was never the same, pretty goofy after that!!! (she was a small dog too, a little cocker mix)
I don't like counter grazing either, so I put all my meet in the sink, so they can't reach it. And I clean up food immediately so not to tempt them. My dogs know when they are in trouble, they won't come running to me when I get home if they have done something bad. that is my last set of dogs, my new dogs are in their crate and when I am home, with me ALWAYS!
I understand you were angry and I hope you can find a way to stop this, especially for the overweight dog, it is unhealthy for it.
God bless

 Quote: shody lytle

... people constantly say dogs don't feel guilt. They feel something very close, call it what you will. They KNOW, even when we don't know yet or haven't reacted or shown any signs.

Or -- they "know" that in this situation in the past, the owner was angry and the dog may have been corrected.

Does that mean the dog feels guilty about his part in triggering the situation?

In my book ... no.

Anxiety and guilt are different things.

John -

Aggression issues are one of my specialties. I have quite a bit of experience compared to most(generalized term not directed at this web board) with dogs that are dominant and or aggressive. Do I know the damage that can be caused by a dog? Why yes actually I do- I have the scars to prove it and have seen it first hand in other cases.

My first serious dog bite was during my "love solves everything stage" (aka beginning stage) of dog training. A female Rott gave me a couple love bites resulting in a broken right hand with 2 mangled fingers that gives me trouble in the cold, plus a cracked rib/stitches in my chest and side. There are other instances but that is the best as its an example of stupidity on my part. I've been bit by horses too and I tell You what I'd rather get mauled by a dog.

You gave an example of an extreme case where it was not exactly helpful to the OP who does not have an overly aggressive dominant animal but who does have kids. I am not going to argue that it can work and would work but personally I don't allow aggressive animals I am rehabbing into my kitchen or without supervision/control at any time. I don't care if a dog can and will counter surf - they are not given the opportunity and if something did by chance get nabbed like I was distracted and actually had food out, the dog would not be the one at fault.

Regarding the food and thawing .. maybe I come from a family of elite beings or something? I've eaten raw hamburger with raw eggs on a cracker before. And I don't mind if you don't want to eat at my house. My 3 years of culinary classes and such are better put to use on my unsanitary family

I have worked in food service, I know the rules of what restaurants and fast food places are and are not allowed to do. I don't know anybody who followes those guidelines to a T at home. Thawing something out in the fridge is not fool proof. Temperatures inside an average home fridge fluctuate when they are opened and closed and a lot of people don't set their fridge to the correct temperature anyways (should be under 40 degrees, preferably under 38)

For the lack of respect statement in regards to the hotwired countertops and rotti, it would appear I was correct in that the dog you gave the example of did not respect or trust you. Per dog psychology, taking food when nobody else is around is not a sign of disrespect. Alphas don't leave food they still want. It is natural for a dog to scavenge and very common in dogs that may have been starved at some point.

Regarding the baiting of food. This only works with baited food. A dog can smell, you know. Putting bitter apple or lemon juice of pepper on a chunk of meat will only keep a dog from eating more food with bitter apple or lemon juice or pepper on it. Unless you put a guard of that stuff arond the food just baiting the food once or twice won't work, you would need a towel or something soaked with that scent in front of the food and even then a dog can and will just go right over the top of that and snatch something.

And for dogs that always seem hungry. It's called food drive. Doesn't mean the dog has worms or is being starved. According to a lot of dogs, they are being starved. It is always good to make sure but just because a dog acts like it is always hungry does not mean it has parasites or some sort of deficiency.

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I'm not sure that saying they have no idea what they did is wrong is true. I think that is serious underestimation of a dog's capacity for thought,

I have to agree with you - I stick by the correction time limit to protect most dogs. I do not agree with a dogs or any animals memory being strictly limited to right now - you'd have a hard time training a dog that had no memory. I try to tell people that and they try throwing "operant conditioning" around like a weapon not realizing that anything the dog is not born knowing and capable of, is learned. Learning requires memory. But I won't go there, people here know better lol.

Dogs have memory most certainly and a properly timed caught in the act correction will have an affect, hence your bird example, but often a dogs drives overload its memory for corrections or injury recieved way back when. I look at it in the same way as a dog that gets zapped on the horse fence when chasing a ball. Throw the ball over there again tomorrow and there is a 50/50 chance the dog will get zapped again if it is really focused on that ball/prey item. Food drive can overpower a lot of things and indeed even wolves will do things they know they should not and get corrected for it by the alpha many times.

About when you are watching.. anyone ever tried closing your eyes most of the way and seeing if your dog attempts to do something it shouldn't? It's fascinating. A dog knows that when your eyes are closed, you can't see... kinda creepy :laugh:

Gypsy was the devil when it came to this so we set her up with an open package of weines covered in jalapino juice, once or twice was all it took; she then moved her covert operations to the trashcan

 Quote: robbinmann

big meanie pants

Wahahahahah!!!! That is the funniest description of myself that I have ever read.

Your *second* description of how you handled the situation ("who did this?!?!") sounds exactly like what I do when, alas, I have not watched my dog and she got into the garbage. Sigh. It happens to everyone, I think. Although it's more exasperating when someone ELSE was supposed to be watching the dogs.

What everyone else posted on here about their dogs being nowhere to be found when they get home reminds me of Mallory's post about the crate-escaping dog; she got home and the dog was sitting beside its crate, pretending to be inside the crate. LOL!!

I just wanted to third or second the notion that some dogs are ALWAYS starving, my two hound mixes act like they havent been fed in ages every single time, they gobble their food down and then want more.
If I give it to them they will eat it, to the point of misery and danger.

The can monster really did work, it only took once and it didnt risk harm to any other family members or the dog, it only scared him and made him think hard before going after food.
I have also heard Duct tape laying face up on the counter can be a good detterent, but you must be coming back inside quickly to de-tape the dog.

And I dont reccomend it if you have cats, i tried it on our couch and the poor kitty was stuck to the duct tape in about 5 places!