Well I don't know about anyone else but this thread has made me want to sign up for one of Roni's seminars.....how would one inquire about doing that?????

Ditto Valerie.
My brother lives in Minnesota so I combined the trip.

Rick...with Roni's method most dogs, both of mine included actually ,build drive and are actually excited and tail is waging when I use the stim. It is not being used to correct but to help the dog learn. When i use the tap tap tap of the stim and ask my dog to heel, she really gets pumped up in a positive way that is really cool and is ready to work.

I will be having Roni again this spring or summer and if people want to let me know what would work for them. I can try to get a leerburg group together for a ecollar seminar with Roni. I also believe she has a seminar in March or April near her place. Roni also has a beautiful training facility if anyone wants to head to Michigan.

Corinne

See, once everyone heard about the basic idea behind the method, they all want to go to your seminar. Good for you, Roni!

I have never been critical about the method (because I didn't have any info), just the fact that Roni wouldn't give me a little more info about the method. After Corinne explained it, I am sure noone went out and tried to apply this method. This is a common sense issue...

Here's the deal:

I just finished wathing Ed's ecollar DVD. In it he describes "avoidance training" which I have already been through. I felt like the initial description Roni gave sounded similar to this avoidance training, so I thought I would inquire about it...wouldn't you?! Now that someone has been willing to share a bit about the method, I can see that it is not the same as what Ed was describing on the DVD.

But if noone is willing to explain, I am just left to wonder...and I have a very active imagination! Thanks to Corrine, I now know enough to determine this method is not avoidance training as Ed explained it on the DVD.

I am on this web forum to learn from others who have more experience than me. But I cannot draw water from stone! The first time I posted a question here, I was amazed at the speed of the replies, and more importantly, the depth of knowledge and willingness to share. So, forgive me if I have come to expect it.

P.S. I am still waiting for someone to point me to where Bernhard Flinks is posting...I am not joking!

Bernhard doesn't post anywhere on the net. He passed along a post to this site a few years back to defend a trainer that had held a seminar for him who was basically being slandered, but that's been the only time.

He has a tiny website, but it's mainly so people can get in touch with him to schedule private training.
http://www.b-flinks.de/

Rick;
As I have said before, I take training dogs very seriously. Explaining, an entirely new approach to using an e collar on a web board is not helpful to the dogs. Bottom line. In my prior post, I describled using a pulsing stimulation paired with a primary reinforcer and body language to teach, which describes what I do. Teaching people how to do use the method to teach their dogs takes me about an 1.5 hour lecture and then a hands on 2 day workshop. So, from my perspective, I was not withholding information, or refusing to share. I have worked with a couple of thousand people and dog teams, each bringing unique challenges in the communication field. I can see from your posts that you take my statements out of context and are then confused by what I am saying. If we were face to face, I could then help you understand what I am saying and also show you what I am doing and then have you practice what I showed you, there by helping you learn what I was actually teaching.
Some people are auditory learners some are visual and some are a combination. I teach with a lot of humor. Dog training is supposed to be fun. Fun for the person and the dog. You are more than welcome to come train with me,attend a seminar that
I give or talk dogs in general. I am here, on this web board to
promote the responsible training and ownership of dogs. The shock collar has such a negative association with it that, we in the profession, prefer to call it an e collar. Lets be really honest. Dogs have been abused with almost all the tools of dog training. I will not joke about "frying the dog" or shocking the crap" out of the dog, because I know people do just that, and the current tool that's popularized is the e collar. After all, just slap it on the dog, push a few buttons, fry the dog and wala, you have a trained dog..........do it from your Lazy boy. Rick, I just want to make sure that you understand from here on out, I am not refusing to give you valuable information,
discuss my training methods or engage in "dog discussion". I want "Joe Q. Public" to be able to sign on this forum and know that we are not training dogs. We are discussing dog training.
Lets keep it fun!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps Roni could make a DVD. I live a long way from MN, but if there is something truly revolutionary to be learned, sign me up for a DVD.

I understand Rick's point though, the purpose of this forum is to help pass knowledge along to others.

The one thing that I don't agree with though is that all dogs can be trained with Positives only. Try to train a dog under heavy distraction to recall. For example a rabbit running out in front of him. One of my dogs (lab), would run by the world's best steak under that situation. I however have taught him to recall off of rabbits. All of the learning phase was completed with very low level stimulation. I tried various things to teach the high distraction situations. In the end I had to resort to higher levels of correction. I wish there was a better way.

I am sure that there are all kinds of trainers out there that will jump up and down and claim they do have a better way. The funny thing is the ones that I meet that claim this, I always challenge to a competition. I even offer a cash prize. No one every takes me up on it. Truth is my lab is very far from being competition material. The bigger truth is that these PP trainers don't stand a chance if they leave their treats at home and we test under distraction.

--Dan

Roni, I undertand that you are serious about training. I never said you weren't. I appriciate the fact that you cannot give specific, detailed info about the method, but I never asked for that. I just wanted to see if there was a difference between your method, and avoidance training. (By the way, my Dogtra informtion included some tips for training, and it is sort-of like avoidance training.)

 Quote: roni hoff

I can see from your posts that you take my statements out of context and are then confused by what I am saying. If we were face to face, I could then help you understand what I am saying and also show you what I am doing and then have you practice what I showed you, there by helping you learn what I was actually teaching.

The way I look at it is that you aren't providing context. There seems to be a huge difference between what Corrine described and what Ed describes in the ecollar DVD. But from your description:

 Quote: roni hoff

...but i can deliver a rythemic pulse, in conjunction with a primary reinforcer and body language to teach.

your system sound much like what Ed describes as avoidance/escape training:

 Quote:

...There was a system developed that was called avoidence training. Alot of people today still use this kind of training with their dogs...they give the dog a command, and at the same time they push the button on the collar to stimulate the dog. He gets continuous stimulation until he performs the command. The concept is that the dog learns how to turn the electricity off.

--from the Ecollar DVD for Pet Owners. (Introduction section)

See, I am not taking it out of context. I am asking you to put it into context:

 Quote: rick miller

Could you further explain how you use the pulsing to teach?

--------------------------

 Quote: roni hoff

You are more than welcome to come train with me,attend a seminar that I give or talk dogs in general. I am here, on this web board to promote the responsible training and ownership of dogs.

After watching Ed say that he doesn't reccomend avoidance training, I wouldn't go to one of your seminars if I still had the notion in my head that you were using this technique. For example, I didn't buy the Bernhard Flinks Building Drive and Focus DVD until Ed reccommended it in the Basic Obedience DVD. I did not know the technique, but Ed said it was good, so I went for it. Compare that with the way I percieved your methods. I thought you were advocating a method that Ed had expressly rejected in the DVD that I just watched. (Admittedly, this was extremly confusing to me, as I know that Ed reccomendes you strongly and you are a moderator.)

Fortunatly, Corrine stepped in and provided enough for me to understand that it was different. Note that the whole time I didn't jump to conclutions, I was just asking to get a little info. (Not alot!) Obviously, I don't expect you to give away a two day seminar on the forum. I never asked for that!

 Quote: roni hoff

The shock collar has such a negative association with it that, we in the profession, prefer to call it an e collar. Lets be really honest. Dogs have been abused with almost all the tools of dog training. I will not joke about "frying the dog" or shocking the crap" out of the dog, because I know people do just that, and the current tool that's popularized is the e collar. After all, just slap it on the dog, push a few buttons, fry the dog and wala, you have a trained dog..........do it from your Lazy boy.

I am positive that your method could not be taught from a lazy-boy! And I know nothing about it!

I call my collar an ecollar because that is what it is. Or a remote collar. I don't use the action the collar gives (shock), just like I don't call a prong collar a pinch collar. Frankly, it doesn't matter if you call it a remote collar, an ecollar or an ultra-deluxe fuzzy fluffy foo foo collar. When people inquire about what it really is, their preconcieved notions will come out conjuring up images of people being tasered, etc...if these people know you well enough, they will know that you aren't trying to hurt the dog, and that your judgement is best. If they don't know you, perhaps they would have to see you handle your dog, and witness your responsible and caring treatment of the dog. But if you won't tell them anything, or seemingly avoid talking about it, they can only imagine, you know?

Gotcha Rick, I thought pulse the button and tap the button meant the same thing, go figure. LOLOLOLOLOLO.
The ultra cool thing about the e collar is that it can be used in all phases of dog training. It's an invalueable tool!!!
Allows us to be balanced in our approach, in all phases.

 Quote: Roni Hoff

Gotcha Rick, I thought pulse the button and tap the button meant the same thing, go figure. LOLOLOLOLOLO.

Well, you are a very experienced dog trainer using the ecollar. And you are talking about your own method.

I am a musician. I can sing one of my own songs by heart without looking at the music. I wrote the song...Should I chastize the bass player when he can't play without the music after going through the song the first time? (The answer is yes...ask anyone who doesn't play bass! )

It sounds like my ignorance is annoying to you, so I will just go on with life knowing not to ask you to explain your method over the forum anymore.