There are also dogs that will not engage a weak, passive person pretending to be a decoy, but that was also not the case at the SS.

The problem with the work at the Sieger Show(s) is even more glaring when you compare it to the work of some of the top working dogs.

YouTube is becoming a very good resource to see some very good dogs in action. Since I'm a bit lazy, I'm going to use three of the dogs I listed in an earlier post, (easy to cut'n'paste into the search panel)

Orry von Haus Antverpa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eDtqtWTHEU

Querry von Haus Antverpa
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Querry+von+Haus+Antverpa+&search_type=

Tom van't Leefdaalhof
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Tom+van%27t+Leefdaalhof+&search_type=

Vom Ban Holz has a very nice archive of working dogs.
http://www.vombanholz.be/

I know nothing about this topic. But Charlie, I was amazed at what I saw in those videos. Those dogs were amazing! But the decoys seemed more involved or active. I can't really articulate it but they seem to give the dogs more of a challenge. Am I correct in this observation?

I love Banholz. In fact after viewing the SS tapes, I was feeling very depressed, so I just hopped on over to Banholz and watched some of my favorites! Cheered me right up!

I also know nothing about this topic, but there is a huge difference in the dogs in Charlie's links from the original ones. Those SS links, the dogs seemed to not have focus, they were sloppy, and there was no power involved. Again, I am totally ignorant concerning this type of work, but that is what I saw. The last link on Charlie's post was awesome. That dog was ON! In everything it did. Amazing to watch.

Wow -- great links on the Banholz site. I just watched those for over an hour!

I didn't get through the first Sieger show link of catalog #1-#5 without yawning...

What a contrast of GSD's, judging, handlers and training.

Katie

I've been to(watch)two National SV dog shows. The first was out of curiosity. The second was just to see if the first couldn't have been a mistake. It wasn't!
Out of 150 dogs in the protection routine there were 5-6 that I would have taken home.
Some of the owners on the sidelines were damn near pissin their pants with excitement when their dogs actually engaged the helper.
There was even some comment on the sidelines that the helpers were being a bit hard on the dogs. YIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEE!!!!!

 Quote: Charlie Snyder

Tom van't Leefdaalhof
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Tom+van%27t+Leefdaalhof+&search_type=

Now this actually made me cry. No, seriously, I have tears in my eyes right now... It is just so beautiful! How can anyone consider these a**draggers more beautiful than this?

I have attended about 8 SV style Sieger Shows in North America (US and Canada). I agree with those who have already said that in general, much of the protection test work is less than stellar.

I would also say to those who are overly critical - let's see YOU out there on the field with your dog. Sieger Show rules do not exclude working lines. I'd love to see more working lines on the field - especially those dogs who have been judged to have high caliber (V) conformation to go with excellent protection work. There are lots of very nice dogs IMO, in this category. Criticizing the US/Canadian based juding after YOUR dog did stellar protection test work, but subsequently ended up with a less than V rating would have MUCH more impact (IMO) than just criticizing the you tube videos.

Having lived for several years "in the belly of the show line beast," I feel comfortable saying that the MEMBERSHIP of the USA and WDA organizations MUST speak out to help stop the easy passing of the weaker dogs. You Tube will help. But we also need people to get involved who are willing to present dogs on the field - not just people who sit on the sidelines criticizing the crap out of the people who ARE putting their dogs on the field.

As long as "hard" judges are excluded, and "easy" judges are invited, this is what we will have. (speaking of German SV judges)

IMO, ALL German Show line dogs don't suck. Rather than sit around and diss the ones who DO suck, maybe we should help promote the ones who ARE decent and might improve the breeding programs that will continue on, regardless. Maybe show line buyers could be encouraged to consider a better point of view if more USA / WDA members entered their working lines in these events.

Arm chair quarter backing with zero action to back it up isn't going to solve this problem. I'm secretly hoping that some folks with solid V rated (or potential for that) working line AND show line (i.e. the mid range V dogs who may be great in the work, and "OK" in the conformation) dog owners will line up in droves to enter the WDA fall Sieger Show. There is a new President in place who is open to listening. I think he has some courage to at least attempt some change, if the membership of the WDA wants that.

On the other hand, if the WDA members prefer to sit in our collective arm chairs and poke fun of you tube videos, then life will carry on as it always has.

I understand the issues here (at Leerburg) with the WDA (aka - the GSDCA / AKC stuff). But the Sieger Shows happen every year under UScA, WDA, also in Canada in NA. And hopefully all venues can be leveraged to make positive differences at appropriate times.

There are several females and males whose "every day" type of work I am familiar with. Anyone looking for a very direct / HONEST opinion about a specific dog is welcome to PM me. I will echo Bob Scott that there are only a limited number I could feel comfortable recommending (for breeding / pups / etc.). But I DO have the benefit of knowing several of these breeders and their dogs/history/reputation for several years.

I will reiterate - I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to see more working lines entered in the fall WDA Sieger Show. If the working line owners believe their dogs can show off better work, then enter the event. The criticisms of the show lines (IMO) will be much more impactful coming from folks who are in the game.

2 cents...

Beth