Not to pick on Jason but he's not an experienced old timer and really had no way of knowing what would be the right way to handle this dog. Just jumping into choking a dog out was so far over the top that I thought the replies were very fair.
You are right. Very, very few people have dealt with this or really know all thats involved.

 Quote: Jenni Williams

How many of you have dealt with a dog that aggressive?

Probably more than you'd realize. I think we can all agree that Ed has. We'll leave out who else may or may not have to avoid the peeing contest.

I think Jason was brave to admit to everything going on with the dog, and he fully admitted he was in over his head. Let's give the newbie a break.

True. I think we can all agree on that point.

For those of you who were shocked by the methods described...they are used more than you know...

I think you misunderstood where the shock was coming from- and frankly, you yourself should be shocked.
He's had the dog less than a week. No one worth their salt as a trainer would be employing those sorts of methods in a dog that was brand new to them.

I give someone credit for committing to a dog like this.

I would probably agree, were it not for his lack of ability to accept criticism and learn new things.

Oh, and was I the only one who took the shotgun comment as sarcasm? I don't think there was really a shotgun...

I actually took it as untruth after the fact, trying to explain how really, it was okay to have set the dog up for failure after only 5 days in the home, because it was completly safe for the humans involved. Because the OP has no concept of WHERE the outrage was coming from (and he doesn't seem to be the only one, either).

It's really simple: It is neither fair, nor sound training, to be handling a dog in such a manner after it has only been in the home for 5 days. The methods are not the problem, it's the timeline in which they have been employed.

 Quote: steve strom

Not to pick on Jason but he's not an experienced old timer and really had no way of knowing what would be the right way to handle this dog. Just jumping into choking a dog out was so far over the top that I thought the replies were very fair. ....

So did I.

Also agreed with:

 Quote: Al Curbow

... The dog has been with you for a few days and it's getting level 10 corrections and choked out when you set it up for your friend (a stranger to the dog) to touch him? .... AL

(And for handler aggression. The O.P. was about handler aggression.)

 Quote: steve strom

Not to pick on Jason but he's not an experienced old timer and really had no way of knowing what would be the right way to handle this dog. Just jumping into choking a dog out was so far over the top that I thought the replies were very fair.
You are right. Very, very few people have dealt with this or really know all thats involved.

That's all I was trying to point out. It's very easy to scream and shout and be outraged (and I'm not even saying those who were were wrong to feel that way) but it's a whole 'nother ballgame to have a dog you literally cannot take out of his crate without fear for your personal safety. That was all I was saying, and for once, Steve, YOU seemed to be the one who "got it"! LOL! How 'bout that? Me and my weird writing style, and you got it!

Jason didn't say he was doing things 100% perfectly also, to be fair.

Alyssa, reread what I wrote. From what you said, you must've misunderstood where I was coming from and the point I was making. I am not shocked, sorry if that bothers you; it does no good to the dog or the handler to be shocked...it's much more productive to let bygones be bygones and concentrate on moving forward and making positive progress for everyone's sake.

Judging what's already been done will NOT help this dog; can we all agree on that??? To be fair (and I hate being fair, LOL) Jason did not create this monster; he got the dog like this. I would feel entirely different if he had the dog for a year. Would I have done the same thing? Probably not. Can I judge someone whose shoes I have not walked in in a dire situation? Not in good conscience.

My point is that if we want someone to stick around, let's cut him some slack for asking for help and admitting he's in over his head. It's not easy to tell your mistakes to a board of 11,000 people, then sit back and wait for the criticism.

I might be wrong, again, and be misreading all this, but I didn't even take his last post as saying he was leaving, but just that he had nothing else to say about what was already done. He didn't say anything nasty to anyone, politely thanked those who responded, and never said he was leaving. Gosh, when did I become the eternal optimist?!

The problem is the same one that we have constantly around here.

Someone posts asking for help, typically with a very long backstory.

Problems within the current training approach are pointed out, and advice is given.

The OP then defends the original behavior, rather than saying, "You know what? You're right, I made a mistake. I should try something different next time. Thanks for the advice."

I don't think Jason is leaving either. I hope not.

I also hope that he can take away from this thread that his past approach is at a minimum, not beneficial to the dog or the dog's training.

I don't think anyone was setting out to beat up on Jason for mistakes he has already made. But when every peice of advice is rebutted and he doesn't see that there HAVE been any mistakes, it becomes very hard to move beyond the old behavior.

 Quote: Alyssa Myracle

... Someone posts asking for help, typically with a very long backstory. ... Problems within the current training approach are pointed out, and advice is given. ... The OP then defends the original behavior .... don't think anyone was setting out to beat up on Jason for mistakes he has already made. But when every peice of advice is rebutted and he doesn't see that there HAVE been any mistakes, it becomes very hard to move beyond the old behavior.

Nutshell.

There's something wrong with my computer.

 Quote: steve strom

There's something wrong with my computer.

AHHHHH,,,,smiley faces....Help me Mr. Wizard>>>>

Ok a few cents for what they are worth.

Regarding the time frame here, we can't know exactly all that has gone on with Jason and this dog. I do not believe that being a stranger to the dog as a handler means that hanging him for handler aggression is wrong. If you are to handle the dog at all you need to set up a routine, work on pack structure, and yes, bond. But if the first thing the dog does is growl and show aggression, do you not correct simply because the dog is "new" ? How do you build a bond with a dog this aggressive that sets itself up as an aggressive dominant dog from the first second you have it? IMO the aggression towards the handler needs to be fixed first, the dog must understand that the new owner is alpha before respect and a bond can be built.

I go to people's homes for aggression issues as a total stranger and have ZERO issues hanging a dog for trying to attack me, whether I have known the dog for 5 years or 5 minutes. This is what I am there to stop, I am not going to allow a dog to bite me or get out of hand simply because I have no bond with it.

While I don't agree with how Jason set this dog up, just because he has only had the dog for 5 days does not mean he is not jusitified to take extreme measure if the dog tries to attack him. That does not mean the dog needs to be hung all the time and I don't want to hear of this dog being set up with a stranger anymore.. I'm choosing to leave the shotgun comment alone.

Regarding the leash, I agree with the recommendation of a chain leash. Very cheap if you buy one, cheaper if you make one.

The main thing here is Jason needs to handle the dog differently, very strict NILIF policy, pack structure, pack structure, pack structure. Fearing you will get bitten and just being a doormat to the dog will get you nowhere. The problem comes from the fact that this dog is likely to react aggressively to being handled the way he needs to be handled. Jason is not experience with this type of dog, the dog knows this. So while the structure itself may not be what causes an aggressive response, the dog may challenge Jason's uncertainty and not respond to the routine the way he would with an experienced handler. Dogs like this are very adept at reading people.

I wish I could say I was good enought to have never been bitten while working aggression cases. I can't say that. I may have developed fast reflexes from working with animals all my life but I will never be faster than a determined dog, and there are times when I am not capable of giving a correction hard enough to top the dog's drive and my only option is to choke a dog out for coming upleash. I don't consider myself highly experienced, I'm not sure I ever will, but the difference most of the time is that I know how I need to react and I do not second guess myself and I am not afraid or unsure.

You cannot be unsure when working with a dog like this. Jason admits he bit off more than he could chew, and that mentality has partially lead him to where he is at now.

There are different reasons a dog will come upleash, some dogs learn that aggression makes scary things go away or stop, some dogs redirect while in drive out of frustration, etc. etc.