I think the Pro thought group have a point, that a dog doesn't have to think like a human to have thought patterns that can reslove problems without being trained by humans. Dogs can actually train each other example pack order, dogs that hunt in pack and track game. They may not have a lesson paln, to go by, but its still gets done. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I agree that if you define thinking in the way humans do, a dog doesn't think like a human. Though we try to understand the making of how/what dogs think, we only have theroies. They do think or the questions/books would not be. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

This is what I think:

Dogs have associative reasoning but not deductive reasoning.

It's been an interesting thread to say the least. Makes me glad I'm just a dog trainer. Whether a dog thinks or not doesn't concern me, they just do what they are commanded to do. It sure would irritate me if my explosives detector had to think about whether or not he wanted to search for a bomb on a particular day.

DFrost

Wow, to much for me.Lets' all try to enjoy these wonderful animals & thank God all things in life need not be so complicated. Regards Mark

David posted:Whether a dog thinks or not doesn't concern me, they just do what they are commanded to do. It sure would irritate me if my explosives detector had to think about whether or not he wanted to search for a bomb on a particular day.

I agree with David's thoughts completley. "Just Think" lol!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Whether a dog thinks or not doesn't concern me, they just do what they are commanded to do. It sure would irritate me if my explosives detector had to think about whether or not he wanted to search for a bomb on a particular day.


Would it irritate you, too, if you had a seeing eye dog that blindly followed your command to lead you across the street when it saw that a truck was coming?

Bottom line, I guess, is that different jobs & different people have different requirements. Some jobs and some people require blind obedience and some require discrimination. Some jobs the dog is better equipt to do without interference or constant direction from the handler and some jobs the handler has to carefully direct the dog to do along the whole way to get the job done well. Some jobs require a combination of the two -- independence & obedience. Whatever works.

Hmmm….. Ed must be on vacation or something. I remember this same thread appearing a couple of years ago, except it came to an abrupt end by Ed stating something like: “Anyone who thinks that dogs don’t think is a f—ing idiot. End of thread.” What puzzles me even more is that this time it’s the board moderators who think otherwise. What has changed?

I, for one, don’t need a Ph.D. to validate what I already know beyond any reasonable doubt (unless VanCamp’s comment was tongue-in-cheek and I didn’t get it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ). “Think” is too broad of a definition, so I will go so far as to state that dogs do reason and are capable of thought progression, i.e. “I want X, but it is denied me. So if I do A, B will follow and enable me to get X.” I watched a perfect example of that just recently in the interaction between my two 10-mos-old littermates, Aimee and Arma.

Both puppies each got absolutely identical bones to chew on. For some reason Aimee decided that Arma’s bone was much more desirable. She crawled up to her sister and tried to sneak it away—didn’t work. She whined and yelped—no dice. Growled—same thing. All of a sudden she jumped up and I could literally see a light bulb turning on. She looked at me and dashed for the door to the deck. This time I’m the one who is conditioned—that means she has to go out—NOW. I get up to open the door. Arma sees an opportunity to go out and immediately drops the bone. Aimee gets the bone before it hits the ground and settles down happily. If you think that was just a coincidence, two days later the same scenario, except this time I’m in the kitchen by the sink listening to her whining/growling routine, but Aimee cannot see me from the living room. No problem. She rushes into the kitchen, jumps on the window next to the doorway and starts barking furiously as if there is a stranger by the door. You can guess the rest...

There is more in this little example than just reasoning and thought progression—Aimee also “lied”. And lying is a higher form of intelligence, as we all know. However, glimpses like this one are rare and precious, and hardly duplicable in a sterile lab environment. They can only come from people who live and observe and interact with their animals on a daily basis. Unfortunately, such examples of canine intelligence are dismissed by academia as “anecdotal”. I would rather except Ellen’s experiences as testimony to dogs’ intelligence than any Ph.D., since she is the one who works with them daily in a discipline which allows independent thinking. Not all disciplines are such, though. A top SchH competitor, for example, usually keeps his dog in a box and only lets it out to train. Besides, SchH does not allow independent thinking, anyway. If you think about it, the only way a dog can express his independent thinking is by NOT following a command.

Gordon Beyer wrote:

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If a dog can think or reason at any level, why does it take hundreds of repititons to "teach" a behavior to a 90% accuracey level?
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Gordon, I know exactly what you mean and I feel your pain. There were many a time that I felt like screaming: “You stupid bitch! It takes 15 seconds to retrieve that dumbbell and present it to me in a proper fashion. HOW DIFFICULT COULD THAT BE???” Well, if dogs had as much attraction to a dumbbell as some dogs have toward sheep, let’s say, it would not be difficult at all. But they don’t. Most of what we expect them to do does not come to them naturally. Like heeling, not barking at other dogs, not jumping on people they like, not biting people they don’t like and running all 6 blinds when there is no doubt in their minds where the helper is. Imagine for a second that the roles are reversed and we have to live by their standards. I can guarantee you that with enough continuous electric stimulation (or is it “guidance”?) applied to your tender parts you WILL be sniffing the other guy’s butt. And if they withhold food from you for 4 days, you WILL be plowing that dirt with your nose even though you can clearly see with your eyes that the footstep go that-a-way.

So to sum it up, what REALLY blows my mind is that despite their intelligence, they still give us 90%.

Sorry for such a long post.

Renee Felknor

Renee:
"Hmmm….. Ed must be on vacation or something. I remember this same thread appearing a couple of years ago, except it came to an abrupt end by Ed stating something like: “Anyone who thinks that dogs don’t think is a f—ing idiot. End of thread.”

Russell Gibson:
Really? After putting his life efforts into dogs and training he's of the opinion that they have no ability to "think"? And I'm talking about THEE definition found in the dictionary, not a "definition" created by some other so called trainer. If he said this then by his own statement that would make all of us who hold a contrary view "F-ing Idiots". If true, he's way out of line to call us that and his statement speaks volumes about what the guy knows (and doesn't know) and his character. I for one won't buy any more videos, equipment, dogs or the time of day from a supposed expert who apparently holds me in contempt and calls me a "F-ing" idiot. And if you others do, then maybe you truly are.

Russell, I think you should read again the post you just wrote and then type some sort of apology. You obviously got worked up and misunderstood what was written. Read it slowly, Ed thinks that dog do think, that is what the post said. Anyone who thinks they DONT think is a F-ing Idiot.