Quote: wendy lefebvre

Tiring the dog out with a game of fetch before a walk worked great for me.

Tucker also has a bad fascination with moving lights & shadows and he was a horror on walks when i first got him as he would re-act to anything flying by or if we walked at night, the car headlights would set him off.

Tiring him out a bit before we left helped alot with those problems.
He had an easier time focusing on me and what i wanted him to do, and didn't slip into the "red zone" as quickly as he would if just started out on a walk straight away.

Yes, and maybe trying two-ball or teaching "give" as a separate command (even indoors, using markers, of course ) will make fetch much more fun and minimize the stop in the action for "gimme that ball!"

John,
You have received some great advice; NILIF and pack structure should definitely be a priority. I think Julie brought up an excellent point on needing to introduce Chewy to self control. As a matter of fact I think that is more of an issue than his need to expel excess energy.

 Quote: john vanecko

yeah chewy always has to be out front right now on our runs.......

No he doesn't. He doesn't have to run at all.

Think along the lines that running is an earned privilege not an entitlement.

 Quote: john vanecko

when pull up in the car and he knows we are near the park (he seems to recognize the areas that we run at ) he is already crying to get out of the car.

Do you let him out? If you do you have just rewarded an unwanted behavior. I'd suggest sitting in the driver's seat (figuratively and literally )until he calms down and if he doesn't I'd go home.

 Quote: john vanecko

..then i put him down while i try and get my camel back on and he is crying loudly and barking and crying and barking and then jumping to run as i try and walk to the trail...he starts getting so amped up and frustrated if i just don't let him go running straight away...

Again, I see no benefit in continuing the walk to the trail and definitely not the run; he is learning that obnoxious behavior gets him what he wants. I'm not surprised he will not follow any command while in this state; the behavior is self-rewarding and the end result "going for a run" is like hitting the jackpot.

 Quote: john vanecko

then for the first 100yds or so he is pulling quite a bit before he eventually settles into a nice jog etc...but still then he is always out front and very difficult to get to run by my side....

More reinforcement for bad behavior.

 Quote: john vanecko

he absolutely loves these runs and if i stop for a water break at 2 or 3 miles, he doesn't want water and is crying and barking again to continue

More of the same

Now in case I have misinterpreted your post and you are not continuing on your walk, run or getting out of the car without insisting on calm (or at least reigned in) behavior; I'll spare you an even longer winded post of ideas to practice self-control.

Any chance of a picture of Charming Chewy?

Sheila,

I guess my problem or more like dilema is this: i know all you mention are bad behavior issues that he basically wins at but what am i to do when i don't let him run and bring him home a bundle of energy? i know he needs to run yet he is being bad so i can't let him.... so i bring him home and work on other things in the house but by then it is dark and we can't trail run...i could try and run on the street at that time but i just don't like running him on pavement (cant be good for his joints?)...

so the rest of the night then he will be wound up and even more wound up next time i go out?

this may be my obvious lack of training skills coming through but i am not sure the best way to proceed i guess...

as for your long winded post of ideas for self control, by all means please do so either by post or pm....i am a sponge when it comes to this information and want to learn as much as i can!!!!

pics of chewman...first as a puppy at about 5 weeks....can you see the evil smile he has

second is him playing frisbee....not a bad jump and pic...

last is a recent pic of my wife and i with him at the beach...

enjoy and thanks again for all the advice..

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb44/fatkidone/Chewy%20Scrap%20Book/Chewy4weeks5.jpg
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb44/fatkidone/Park%20Pics/IMG_1012.jpg
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb44/fatkidone/Chewy%20Scrap%20Book/July09surfing512.jpg

Great looking dog.

The best part of all this is that it seems at base you've got a great cattle dog, with all the character and drive, and no serious aggression issues.

I bet with patience and insight you can figure this out and get the control and the exercise. One of the lines from the Flinks dvd about dog training is that sometimes it requires the trainer to sit down with a glass of scotch and contemplate.

good luck. AM

Hey John, Great looking dog, but I'd still be a bit careful about those jumps. I think they're a bit much for a dog that age. His skeletal system is still developing and lots of jumping now can lead to joint problems down the road.

You can start on self control in everyday life - make him sit, wait and focus on you before he eats, before he walks through the door to go outside, before you give him a toy. Pretty much anything good in life he needs to control himself for. Once you get the pattern going consistently you can ask for and expect it more and more in all areas of life.

Right now what you've done is created a a fit crazy dog - you have a high energy dog so you exercise, exercise, exercise to take his energy down. The problem is you really can't wear out a young healthy working breed like that. Instead you build stamina.

 Quote:

i know all you mention are bad behavior issues that he basically wins at but what am i to do when i don't let him run and bring him home a bundle of energy? i know he needs to run yet he is being bad so i can't let him

I'd say at this point his need to learn self control is far greater than his need to run. Trust me, he's a smart dog. Once he realizes that if he wants something, he needs control himself a bit, it will happen. But since he sounds like he's a bit over the top right now at you regular haunts, practice getting in and out of the car in a controlled manner at home, them take him to a new area and practice. Don't head back to your usual exercise spots (as they are a huge trigger for this behavior) until he can get in and out of the car in a fairly calm manner elsewhere. I'd work on getting in at least 30-40 repetitions of entering/exiting the car in a controlled manner. If you work on this I'd imagine you could have it pretty well down in a couple days. Then head back toward you regular area and stop the car 2 blocks away, get out and get him out and back in again in a controlled manner - you'll be setting the tone for once to get to your destination and you're reminding him of what you expect before he gets to his crazy hyper "we're here" mode.

Do, do, do look into clicker training - clicker training the mental exercise in clicker training will do far more to take an edge off of his energy then running will.

wanted to point a couple things out as people have mentioned this several times. as far as eating is concerned, chewy is on the raw diet...he gets northwest naturals patty in the morning (chicken or beef ) and then at night he gets usually a beef rib or a lamb bone. now when we feed him and chewy knows this all to well now, he absolutely has to go to his "pillow" in the fam room and wait there until we say "okay" .... i can put his bone down in front of him and tell him leave it and he he won't touch it (sometimes he dances around it excited) and he has to be calm before i ok him to eat it. i can go over at any time that he is eating (so can my brother or wife as well) and kneel by him or even ask him to stop eating and he will.

i feel like we have done many of the right steps in training him with the pack leader respect etc just not quite put everything together.

we used to leave his tennis balls around the house and he would pick them up to play whenever he wanted but after reading these threads we have begun hiding all his balls/toys and he gets them when we choose to play ....

i just wanted to point out that he does listen to a pretty fair extent and maybe part of this problem is his age as well.

oh and MARA you are right... it seems the longer my runs are the more excited he is and not worn out.... its quite funny actually how much this dog loves to go go go !!!!!!! love it!!!!

i like the idea about now taking him to different spots and get in and out of the car but not run with him yet...

i will say he is totally fine getting in and out of the car in all places ect. those he recognizes as where we start our runs...

we take him to santa monica a lot as well as home depot etc and he is great getting in and out of the car....i always kennel him in the car btw as i am not a fan of leaving your dog roaming in the car...too dangerous if we get hit etc for the dog...

love the advice...

oh and we have stopped the frisbee jumping after those pics were taking so we don't allow him to do big jumps like that as much as we can keep a cattle dog from wanting to jump...

WOW! He is beautiful!

I think Mara sums up and explains exactly what I was getting at. What is great is that he understands and is capable of controlling himself because of the work you put in around his toys and food in the house. Now it is only a matter of having that self control generalize to all areas of his life. With consistancy it will happen and it won't take forever.

I've been where you are but was a little late in figuring out my dog was actually getting worse the more exercise he got. I felt exactly like you. If he doesn't get to run he'll be a basketcase.

Not so; he actually became more relaxed. The energy it required to control himself offset the lessened physical activity.

John,
I get the feeling you don't want to hear this but here's a last try: Obedience is the key. Train the dog. Slowly add distractions. Proof the training. There is no magic bullet out there to take the place of training no matter how much you type.

Not exersizing the dog is a silly reccomendation, get a treadmill and run the crap out of the dog, it's a cattle dog for crying out loud. Channel the dogs drive into obedience, it's fun and makes for a great handler/dog relationship. Drive evaluation is subjective dependant on what a person has seen, there's many high drive dogs out there that are well trained excellent companions. My SIL has a ACD that she thought was a high drive dog till she met a few really high drive dogs, now her training is going better.

"I've been where you are but was a little late in figuring out my dog was actually getting worse the more exercise he got. I felt exactly like you. If he doesn't get to run he'll be a basketcase.

Not so; he actually became more relaxed. The energy it required to control himself offset the lessened physical activity"

******************

All I can say is this was not my cattledog experience. Exercise helped settle my cattle dog especially in first 3 years. IMO it also provides opportunities for establishing leadership in exercise process. This is not to diminish the importance of mental engagement and training. Also cattle dogs can run to fat easily, are easy keepers feed wise, and need exercise to stay trim. I suppose it may be true that a fat deconditioned cattle dog will have less energy, but who wants that.

John I wonder if it would help to change the locale of the run to establish routines where you require chewy to have self control and once that expectation is set return to old routes.

It isn't either exercise or self control, it can easily be both, and IMO both are what is needed for a happy healthy cattledog.

I find it very likely that some of his frenetic behaviour is rooted in his cattle driving genetics. My cattle dog never did like a group to stop on an outing. He would bark on group mountain bike rides when the group stopped as a young dog. Our old border collie cross, a gathererer, liked it when the group came together: not so with a cattle dog, movement of stock is key. A cattledog's job is often to keep cattle moving. This is a situation for teaching an alternative behaviour like a down stay, and as soon as you stop for water put him in down (with marker and reward) before pulling out your water. If he barks from a down, well, he'll get tired of that (I hope).

One thing I did in this opposite corner of the continent with my cattledog was take him canoeing and kayaking (front seat of a double: no big waves), my guy really liked it, settled in well. He would actually sit up on the bow deck of either canoe or kayak when we let him. I found it amazing to see him standing right at the tip of our 19' double gazing calmly forward. not sure this is in your quiver of outdoor pursuits, but as always many obedience and self-control opportunities abound in all such activities...

Definitely do not 'run the crap out of' a one year old dog on a treadmill. That's asking for joint issues later on. Obedience or other work activities tire a dog out a lot more than straight running.