That last sentence, Bob ... I was hoping you'd see this thread and put that reminder in.

 Quote: bob scott

Too many years of nasty ass terriers to use shaking for correction. I've never seen it used by a dog on dog for anything other than punishment. Nothing to do with correction.

If a mother dog scruffs her pups it's to pin and imobilize it, NOT to shake the crap out of it. When a pup shakes another pup it's usually about "my winkie is bigger then your winkie".
CALMLY Lift the dog by the scruff (front feet only if it's too big) until it calms down. It may fight like hell but it WILL calm down...unless it has crap nerves but that's another story.

You said the dog is peeing as you are going outside.
Possibly anticipating the punishment coming from the last time it headed towards the door and got the crap shook out of it.
Think about that!

You could originally lift the pup by the scruff with no problems then it escalated. WHY? I'm guessing you brought the level up and the pup responded with stress, NOT AGGRESSION!
As many here have commented, go back to basic house breaking. My first rule of house breaking is if the pup is still messing in the house "I'M" doing something wrong.

Hard to tell from a written post but I think this dog has no trust/faith in you as a leader. Leadership has nothing to do with power. It's about out thinking the dog.

Hey, thanks. That was the first time he was corrected for peeing in the house since there have been few incidents. His peeing wasn't out of fear, I set him down so that I could unlock the door, he walked over to a corner and peed while I was opening the door. Today when we went out there was no hesitation or cowering, I get him to sit before we go outside (for treats, he's not corrected if he does not sit at this point) and he sat straight up and calmly came outside behind me, head and tail up.

I like your comment about the pups, makes me think of one of the videos where some of the pups are getting very aggressive over a toy (or bone, I can't remember), and the dominant pup uses very little aggression, if any. More posture, calm and controlling space.

 Quote: jessica pedicord

Michael, if your intent is to train this dog for protection, you don't want to be correcting him for biting at this point. That is going to make your bitework impossible down the road. Also, you don't want to destroy his drive by draining him down to complete subservience. Then you end up with a dog that throws itself on the ground and belly-crawls in fear anytime a human being approaches. I've seen this a lot.

At this stage, your puppy isn't "biting" he's "mouthing". If you are a big guy, then you should be able to break away and IGNORE the puppy when he mouths on you.

As for corrections, those don't start until you've done some SOLID obedience work with your pup. He needs to know commands and behaviors and understand you crystal clear when you ask something of him. Corrections should only take place when he knows damn well that he shouldn't be doing whatever he is doing. Depending on what age you start him on obdience, and how much you work at it, maybe the SOONEST would be 6 months. Ideally after the dog is a year old. But every dog matures at a different rate.

So... moral of the story... Correcting a puppy is a waste of time. They are too immature mentally to understand WHY they are being corrected. IGNORE the unwanted behavior and start on some simple basic training. Sit, down, whatever. Lots of POSITIVE rewards, and no acknowledgment of bad behavior other than an "Oops!" if he goofs.

Thanks, I really liked your post. I think we're confusing things a bit though, as it's not mouthing, and it's not biting out of defense as Jenni suggests. I'm about 100% certain this is a bite out of dominance, not accepting my correction. He has barked and growled at me when he has wanted out of his crate (and this was before ever receiving corrections from me). I have tried the sort of corrections people have suggested here, gently lifting by the scruff or giving a light shaking of the scruff when he is being snotty. And he either growled and bit me or just went back to being snotty. He did not start growling/biting because I was correcting too hard, correcting harder only intensified the growling/biting.

I've seen people with Malinois who cower when the handler approaches them (not sure how they react to strangers). It's really sad to see a young dog shaking. I'd rather have a dog that is calm and confident, but can't do the work. So this is part of the reason I was trying to ask these questions here. From some people I have heard you can give hard corrections to a young puppy, as long as it's for something serious and that you reward them after they stop doing the inappropriate action. But I think it's possible you could kill drive (Ed says it will not) or result in a shaky, cowering dog. I don't like the idea of my dog being scared of me. So I guess this is my investigation of corrections vs. pack structure work.

 Quote: Jenni Williams

He's not mouthing; he's biting because he feels he has to defend himself. Reread the first post. Wouldn't YOU bite Michael, Jessica?

Michael, I'm glad you are open to the possibility that you may have gone too far in your efforts to establish hierarchy. Hopefully, now you can concentrate on building a bond with him. Remember, he doesn't even know you; he just got here less than 2 weeks ago from another country, and he's already felt he had to fight to defend himself. Ease up and I bet in a few short weeks, if not days, you'll see a differene.

Yeah, that's an important part of it too I think. After flying for half a day he seemed to warm up to me really easily, but it likely doesn't make too much sense to have a hard correction after knowing me for such a short period. So maybe that's an argument for groundwork over corrections.

Today when we went out for a walk he was really excited to get going and was jumping at me as we were walking. We went into an office building and took the elevator to the top floor, and he had no trouble going up and down open stairs. He gets really excited in buildings and just wants to explore everything, some things he will climb up onto without coaxing. Outside the grocery store he climbed a produce rack. And at the hardware store he was trying to climb over pallets. He jumped back a little though as the pop machine shot out quarters for my change. He pretty much always responds to me saying 'let's go' for his toy or a treat. To me it doesn't seem like the corrections have disrupted bonding. But you're right, it very easily could if you're using the wrong corrections, or at the wrong time. Thanks for your responses here.

I too had read Ed's articles about shaking by the scruff and when the dog in the picture below (Winnie) was about 12 weeks she jumped on my mom's small dog and started playing WAY too rough (just a terrier thing) and I grabbed her by the neck and shook her. She growled and made a big stink and I realized that I had put her into flight or fight and she chose fight. I scared the crap out of her. I immediately regreted that and never did it again. It was my fault for letting her loose with another dog.

You said,
"it's not biting out of defense as Jenni suggests. I'm about 100% certain this is a bite out of dominance, not accepting my correction. He has barked and growled at me when he has wanted out of his crate (and this was before ever receiving corrections from me). "

I'm not sure that a 12 week old puppy is going to challenge you out of dominance in that way. In the puppy's mind, you may be scaring the crap out of him like I did. I've had puppies who do that barking AT you thing and I think it's just an obnoxious puppy thing. Some dogs are like that.

What I would do (and I think someone mentioned it) is have a leash on him at all times. Maybe run from the crate to the door in a happy excited way, maybe treat in hand so he's focused on that instead of peeing. I personally wouldn't make him sit before going outside, ONE THING AT A TIME, let him figure out housetraining first. THEN worry about sitting at the door. He's got to pee and you're making him sit and wait.

Let me rephrase the flight or fight thing. Flight is not an option because you are holding him off the ground. Some puppies may scream and wimper and try to "fly" but your breed and particular dog is a "fighter" I wouldn't do it anymore, I mean, it's obviously not working despite the reason why.

 Quote: michael pugsley

 Quote: jessica pedicord

.... If you are a big guy, then you should be able to break away and IGNORE the puppy when he mouths on you.

As for corrections, those don't start until you've done some SOLID obedience work with your pup. He needs to know commands and behaviors and understand you crystal clear when you ask something of him. Corrections should only take place when he knows damn well that he shouldn't be doing whatever he is doing. Depending on what age you start him on obdience, and how much you work at it, maybe the SOONEST would be 6 months. Ideally after the dog is a year old. But every dog matures at a different rate.

So... moral of the story... Correcting a puppy is a waste of time. They are too immature mentally to understand WHY they are being corrected. IGNORE the unwanted behavior and start on some simple basic training. Sit, down, whatever. Lots of POSITIVE rewards, and no acknowledgment of bad behavior other than an "Oops!" if he goofs.

Thanks, I really liked your post. I think we're confusing things a bit though, as it's not mouthing, and it's not biting out of defense as Jenni suggests. I'm about 100% certain this is a bite out of dominance, not accepting my correction.

"I'm about 100% certain this is a bite out of dominance, not accepting my correction. "

The correction was for what, exactly? Not the puddle, right?

Because again, "If you are a big guy, then you should be able to break away and IGNORE the puppy when he mouths on you.

As for corrections, those don't start until you've done some SOLID obedience work with your pup. He needs to know commands and behaviors and understand you crystal clear when you ask something of him. Corrections should only take place when he knows damn well that he shouldn't be doing whatever he is doing. Depending on what age you start him on obdience, and how much you work at it, maybe the SOONEST would be 6 months." (from above)


"Being snotty, escalating," etc., all sound kind of out of place when talking about a 12-week-old pup. He doesn't know anything yet. How can he be punished for not doing (or doing) things that he has zero idea about?

Michael, I didn't mean "defense" the way you interpret defense. You're too hung up on "drives" at this point; he's a puppy. That's great that his posture is still indicative of a strong pup; maybe you get another chance with this one. What I meant when I said "defend himself" is defend himself against an unfair correction, as some very strong dogs will do, even at 12 weeks. I had one myself. He was actually a little younger the first time he walked over and bit me-hard- on the leg about 5 seconds after I'd corrected him. I was not nearly as hard on him as you were on your dog, but ironically, I had just picked him up off my pant leg as I was trying to go to work and he was hell bent on attacking my good pants (do dog people really have "good pants?"). It was about the 4th time I'd removed him, and I was losing my patience. I picked up, pried him off, looked at him and said sternly "knock it off," then set him back down. That's it. I turned around to walk away, left him sitting there looking a bit confused and hostile, lol, and next thing I knew I had 4 teeth planted firmly in my calf. I yelled (puppy teeth are brutal!) and turned around and he was already heading back to the spot where he'd been sitting, a satisfied look on his face, LOL.

A full-of-himself pup does not like to be handled this way, and will let you know. Instead of trying to overpower him and getting into a pissing match (for lack of a classier term), try to remember that you are a grown adult, and he's simply a puppy. A puppy who is new, doesn't know where he fits in (good for him that he wants to be on top!), and is simply acting as his instincts tell him to. At this point, don't overthink "why" he's doing it. It's because he's a PUPPY. He knows NOTHING yet of how to properly interact with you and he's trying the only things he knows in his small repertoire.

Be calm. If you're losing your patience, say nothing and put him in his crate. Walk away. Corrections should be dished out from an authority figure to a student. Does a teacher fight with a kindergarten child?

I am aware that there are unusual pups as far as temperament from a young age, and I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you may very well have one. However, the fact remains that at 12 weeks he is too young to suffer harsh physical punishment regardless of his motives when he bites/mouths/whatever. I really meant that he feels he has to defend himself, fight against you, challenge you, etc. because you are pushy and rough w/him, and not at all fair. This is not the same as what you thought I meant and read as defense, and I wanted to clarify that.

BTW, my pup turned out just fine despite my not engaging in harsh physical corrections- he got hired at 2.5yrs as a dual purpose PSD for a decent-sized department. BE PATIENT and appreciate his strong temperament; it will be worth it BIG TIME.

Ok, thanks. That was a really great post. Your idea of using your head and remaining calm makes a lot of sense. Of course, once he is older it will be even more important to remain calm if he has an adverse reaction to a correction. And building a strong bond with well structured activities now may prevent disagreements just as much as hard corrections. I'm going to find as much as I can today to read up on puppies and corrections. I know that some people experienced with Dogos suggest giving hard corrections to puppies if they are giving you a hard time, so I'm also trying to find people who argue against that.

 Quote: michael pugsley

I know that some people experienced with Dogos suggest giving hard corrections to puppies if they are giving you a hard time, so I'm also trying to find people who argue against that.

I'm sure you could find folks experienced with any and every breed of dog who would say hard corrections on puppies is okay when they are "giving you a hard time" (aka not understanding, being afraid, being a puppy, etc...). There are ignorant, ill- informed and mean people in all walks of life. Some very experienced folks on this forum have provided in depth, detailed information on why hard correcting a new-to-the-home, young, un-trained pup is about as cruel and confusing as it gets... I think the "argument against" has been made perfectly clear.