Quote: Tresa Hendrix

Sport did this too, once she got after the mailman and my mom couldn't catch her, every time he moved she headed him off but dodged my mom. She had NO confidence in my mom as a leader so she ran. You want you dog to be confident in you so they feel safe.

Big ditto!

 Quote: Betty Landercasp

I owned a territorial ferocious beast chesapeake. She was very serious.
If you can get a handle on these serious dogs, they can become the absolute best IMO

Interesting. Mondo became my favorite dog of all time very quickly. It makes me feel really guilty and disloyal to my other dogs, but he's so smart and such a great dog in every other way, and he seems so trainable. I've never had any luck training other dogs. Of course I had no idea how to do it (and still don't, evidently, lol).

 Quote: Ramachandran Subramanian

This is my opinion and this is how I train my dogs. See if it makes sense.

Thanks a lot for your detailed response. Yes it does all make a lot of sense to me.

I need to develop the fortitude for correction. I see what you mean about e-collar in this situation. I am very good at blustering at my dogs when they are bad, but I have never done any really physical to them. However, I do have an e-collar (plus watched the video), and it helps keep Mondo close to me on walks. (He is pretty good, but at night, when he gets far away and might be chasing deer or something, it gets his attention and brings him back to me.)

But I see why you would want to personally take charge of the situation and do a close correction. I just don't know if I have the mental/emotional strength to ever jerk him on a prong collar. I can choke him with a nylon collar to prevent him from attacking somebody, but it has to get to that danger point for me to feel right about physically hurting him.

It's something I have to work on about myself.

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Aggression is aggression once it has manifested itself. The reason for it (fear/dominance/defense etc) is very important before it manifests itself, so that we can control and manipulate the environment to prevent the incident from cropping up.

OK. That's something I needed to know--it does make a difference.

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I may have administered hardly 4 or 5 corrections in the past 2 years of my dog's life.

That's good to know. Mondo is very smart, he could learn it very quickly, if it's not fear, right?

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My dogs similarly understand that I do not make empty threats.

Probably another issue I have to work on about myself.

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Of course all this will never work if your dog is a very fearful dog. Any pressure on a fearful dog will make him more fearful and fear aggressive. But a fear aggressive dog will cower and bare it's front teeth and tuck his tail. So you need to read your dog too.

Hmmm...now, when Mondo was at the vet, and the guy in the waiting room was looking at us, he started doing that lip-snarling thing, more and more, baring his teeth. He was sitting down, so I don't know about the tail. I was like, "OMG, my dog doesn't like you!" (this was before a lot of the other stuff had happened) and this guy is not even noticing, staring at him and blabbing on, so I had to get up and move with Mondo.

But at home, he doesn't do that. He barks, snaps, lunges, and makes it so the person is scared to move, when he could easily get away from the person. There isn't any tail between the legs at all, and it doesn't look like fear to me. That's why I thought it might be two different things--territorial at home, and fear away from home. The away from home stuff is very manageable too, unlike the home stuff.

 Quote: Ramachandran Subramanian

.... Any pressure on a fearful dog will make him more fearful and fear aggressive. But a fear aggressive dog will cower and bare it's front teeth and tuck his tail. So you need to read your dog too. ....

Ditto. And I do think the O.P. is describing a fearful, reactive dog.


I think Bob hit it on the nail:


"He puts his bck up against me and did his mean dog thing".

"Trying to get behind the guy".




Bob said: "This is a stress/fear biter. Doesn't mean he wouldn't bite. .... he needs desensitization exercises for the aggression. Correction at this point will probably create stress and that will just boost the aggression."

JMO!


Regardless, for someone who is not an expert reader of dog body language, the desensitizing work can't really backfire unless you fail to control (and protect) the dog, and I'm sure you won't, after reading about the steps you have taken (and even the very fact that you are here, asking) .... you will not be allowing situations where the dog is in his reactive zone, and you WILL be increasing the dog's focus and the dog's perception of you as the decider of all things.

 Quote: Tresa Hendrix

Cool, I wish I had a 6 foot fence. No need to beat yourself up, you're doing the right thing by coming here for advice.

I'm really glad I got that now. I feel like my old dogs are much safer than they were with the underground fence. Plus I have some lilac bushes that may actually be more than stems without leaves or buds if the deer can't get to them. And I'll be able to have a garden, for once...hopefully Mondo won't eat it.

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Before I forget, let me mention you posted on a previous page about testing your dog once trained by letting him loose. No reason to ever try that. Bad enough if its accidental. You can get lucky and your dog will forget he's not on leash, but don't count on it. A long line is your friend.

Oh no, I didn't mean I'm going to test him by letting him loose where he could get somebody. Yes you're totally right; I know he will NEVER be safe alone in the yard if people could unknowingly come in, and never safe with people if he is showing any signs of aggression. He is OK with my BF, and my friend I walk with, and non-threatening people outside the yard, so I have hope that he will be good enough that if a friend he hasn't met comes over, he will be able to stay in their presence on a leash. He did "accept" the trainer I had coming for a while (I mean, he quit acting so vicious, but he still did a lot of bad things like pulling her clothes and throwing a fit. I didn't describe his fit throwing. I'll do that in another post.)

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Logan my dutchie, is not very territorial, he'll let the mailman walk past the gate, he let a dog in our yard one day...the dog was very submissive and Logan played with him. But, as far as defense goes, he serious as hell, proud posture, head up, ears back, tail bent, body oriented forward to lunge (feet under hips/waist). I live in a creepy place and there a creepy people we pass on walks. I don't let him do that (unless they bother me LOL). "what is is?"

I guess defense-aggression is another of the (9?) types (lol, I did watch the video, I need to watch them all again.) Probably Logan would defend you anywhere (home or not home), while for example if Mondo was aggressive when we are out walking, it's most likely fear-aggression.

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Now fear is another thing...take Sport my chow mix for example. She would jump to the top of the door growling and barking, her tail was raised, all hair standing viscous you'd think she would attack....grab her collar and let the person in...then she would "woof" and nervously cautiously sniff them. When confronted, she was a wimp and would flee if pressed.

Watch an ankle-biter in progress, they charge up and stop, barking in a frenzy. Their body language is typically a rounded back, legs braced to back up or turn...etc. But fear doesn't mean they won't bite...dogs like that I call bite-and-runs LOL

Those examples do not describe Mondo. He just didn't look scared to me. His back is not rounded, it's more like sloped, with his back legs flexed to jump, and his front end going up and down, looking like he is trying to find an opportunity to jump up and rip the person's throat out. I'm going to outline the events and how he acted during them as they escalated in another post; maybe that would be helpful.

A dog could be defensive/territorial at home, and fearful other places, right? I just realized, that would explain why he is a lot different on walks (much more easily calmed down by soothing words) than at home (nothing can stop him, he acts like he wants to kill,and I think he would have the last time if the person hadn't been able to defend himself with the thing in his hand that Mondo thought was a weapon.

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I strongly feel that the electric fence is what made your dog so fearful of people in the yard. But you can help him by correctly using markers to desensitize him.

I have to say I know that's not what it was. I've had that underground fence for a long time, with different three dogs (one passed away last year), and it takes like a day for them to learn the boundaries, then it never bothers them again. I don't know if you have any experience with them, but they are extremely easy for a dog to figure out. Mondo never got shocked when any people were around. In fact, he stayed very close to the house all the time; it was kind of weird. At first he wouldn't go more than a few feet into the grass by the front door. After a while he would play further away on the grass, and go into the trees with the other dogs, but it took a long time, and he never has (that I know of) run to the edge of the yard when people walk by. My other two do that, running up and down the edge, just inside the fence, barking at walkers, but everybody knows them and knows they are friendly. Even when that happens, Mondo stays on the porch, just watching, alert, with his tail up. Only when a person came close did he try to attack them.

One time he did run through the fence and got shocked. I was going to the store, and I saw somebody I knew (walking her two german shepherds), so I stopped (to get advice about having a mean dog, lol). Mondo could see me down the street, and he ran through the fence, yelped, and ran over to the car. He ignored the german shepherds, who were going crazy, and just wanted to get in the car. I don't think that he much noticed the shock then.

So you see, he really didn't have a bad experience with the shock-fence, and it wasn't associated with the people he tried to attack at all.

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Good question, Sport did this too, once she got after the mailman and my mom couldn't catch her, every time he moved she headed him off but dodged my mom. She had NO confidence in my mom as a leader so she ran. You want you dog to be confident in you so they feel safe.

I hope he is. I didn't realize Mondo was potentially dangerous when I got him (I would have been scared of him if I had), so I treated him the same way as all my dogs. Which is very kindly, especially at first, probably too indulgently, but I can yell if irritated and physically seem to threaten, at the most pushing them, without ever actually hitting or anything.

He reacted to everything I di in the same way all my other dogs have. He is sweet and puppyish, looks appropriately ashamed and stops what he is doing if I yell, and once when annoyed about something else I screamed "GIT!!!" at him, and that kind of freaked him out, that's when he cowered and put his tail between his legs, and I felt bad. I thought he didn't like that word for some reason.

When I put a leash on him, he doesn't do the bad things he did with the trainer. I got crates for all of them, and he is completely submissive going in and coming out, better than my little old hound dog. He does what I tell him (for the most part), and he has never, ever bit me or threatened me or anything like that. I know him now; I would be incredibly surprised if he did something like that to me. I thought he was like a puppy, because he acted like one, both to me and my old dogs. I don't know much about this, and never really thought that pack-leader stuff meant much (however, I am keeping an open mind as I watch the DVD's; I can see why the techniques work no matter what you ascribe the underlying reason to), but I know that Mondo respects me as somebody who could potentially hurt him; I know by the way he acts. Of course he is very loving to me, I don't mean to say he is scared of me; he has this babyish kissy-thing he does, right on the mouth, to me and the other dogs, especially when they are annoyed at him (which is often). I don't think he is a dominant dog, necessarily (again, not sure if that really means anything; if it does, my 15 old hound dog who pushes my hand to be petted and forces the other dogs to lick her ears, but has run from me if I so much as look at her crossways, without EVER hitting her, is "dominant". All that pack leader and dominance stuff, I'm going to still have to be convinced of.)

This is a lot more difficult to describe than I thought it was going to be. I realize now it's so individual, and a person just has to learn enough to be able to evaluate the situation. It's so hard to describe this complicated stuff and have people who haven't seen it tell you what's going on. But I do appreciate the help and information I've gotten so far. Besides the fact that I got a dog that I really love, he has caused me to learn about this whole new interesting world.

 Quote: Bob Scott

Quote
This is a stress/fear biter. Doesn't mean he wouldn't bite. He will but it's initially going to be someone that runs from him or corners him.

I'm sure he was gonna bite that UPS man that wasn't running, or cornered. I'm going to describe this in better detail later. (Mondo is barking and growling at me right now, lol; past walk time.)

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"Talking calmly to him" during these bouts can very well be perceived by the dog as praise for his crap.

But if it works, isn't that OK?

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As Connie mentioned, he needs desensitization exercises for the aggression. Correction at this point will probably create stress and that will just boost the aggression.
Look at the aggression as a very big distraction to his OB.
OB train (markers)in a very calm environment till it's solid and add those distractions in small bits at a time. THEN when you need corrections it's for disobedience of your command and not for the aggression. The stress created buy the aggression is then avoided.

As I mentioned, I'm not able to do a correction that physically hurts him, especially in an artificial situation.

I'm coming to the conclusion (not sure if right) that Mondo is scared away from the house, and territorial at the house. I'll explain further; I'm sure you'd all love to read another novel about Mondo, right?

I sure hope this was joking:

"Mondo is barking and growling at me right now, lol; past walk time."


If the dog barks for something, then not until there is silence does he get whatever it is he wants. That would never ever be rewarded. Ever.

He doesn't really growl at you to get a walk, right?

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...hopefully Mondo won't eat it.

He'll just dig it up I had to brake Logan of that. LOL

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He is OK with my BF, and my friend I walk with, and non-threatening people outside the yard...

That's exactly how Ali was, she was fear-aggressive and WOULD DEFINATLEY bite.

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I guess defense-aggression is another of the (9?) types (lol, I did watch the video, I need to watch them all again.) Probably Logan would defend you anywhere (home or not home), while for example if Mondo was aggressive when we are out walking, it's most likely fear-aggression.

Yeah and thats something people will talk about in protection training, there are threads here about it. Logan isn't trained so I can't sure what he'd do...I'd like to guess probably because he's very confident.

Now with Mondo its most likely fear-aggresion both in and out of your property. That doesn't mean he won't bite, I think he will from what you say. You mentioned when he was after a person in your yard that his back was sloped? Some people see the legs out behind them (showdog stance) but they do that when they're thinking about pulling back not going forward.

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Those examples do not describe Mondo. He just didn't look scared to me. His back is not rounded, it's more like sloped, with his back legs flexed to jump, and his front end going up and down,

Sport didn't round her back, neither did Ali...sloped back means rear legs behind...ready to backup. Nobody wants their dog to be fearful but you need to realize that's what it is to help him.

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looking like he is trying to find an opportunity to jump up and rip the person's throat out. I'm going to outline the events and how he acted during them as they escalated in another post; maybe that would be helpful.

Yes that could be helpful but everybody here see's it as a fear-aggressive dog. Don't debate advice...if you need to tell us more details then do...we can't see your dog, only what you say. I've worked with dogs both as a hobby and professionally for 15 years. I've seen all kinds, used to groom them and handled more fearful aggressive dogs there than anywhere. Most were fine with some conscientious handling.

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A dog could be defensive/territorial at home, and fearful other places, right? I just realized, that would explain why he is a lot different on walks (much more easily calmed down by soothing words) than at home (nothing can stop him, he acts like he wants to kill,and I think he would have the last time if the person hadn't been able to defend himself with the thing in his hand that Mondo thought was a weapon.

Not that I know of...dogs can be territorial at home but they are always a fearful-aggressive dog. He can be territorial and fear-aggressive. Only if its situational, caused by abuse are they fearful of one thing or one place and otherwise be fine. Rare and clearly not in your case.

If he used it to defend himself then it IS a weapon! And if that happened then its made things worse but can't blame him.

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I have to say I know that's not what it was. I've had that underground fence for a long time, with different three dogs (one passed away last year), and it takes like a day for them to learn the boundaries, then it never bothers them again. I don't know if you have any experience with them, but they are extremely easy for a dog to figure out.

First the others dog's experience is irrelevant. Second, electric fences use fear and they take more than 1 day IF DONE PROPERLY. You're supposed to teach the dog on leash first the boundaries, put flags up then gradually remove them, not a 1 day deal.

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Mondo never got shocked when any people were around. In fact, he stayed very close to the house all the time; it was kind of weird. At first he wouldn't go more than a few feet into the grass by the front door.

Clearly traumatized by the electric fence! If you don't want to believe it and that it has anything to do with the fear-aggression then you are waisting everybody's time. The fence is gone and so NOW you can desensitize his fears.

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My other two do that, running up and down the edge, just inside the fence, barking at walkers, but everybody knows them and knows they are friendly. Even when that happens, Mondo stays on the porch, just watching, alert, with his tail up. Only when a person came close did he try to attack them.

He's sticking close to the house where he feel safe from them likely...does he raise a paw, flick his tounge, pace, look away?

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Mondo could see me down the street, and he ran through the fence, yelped, and ran over to the car.... I don't think that he much noticed the shock then.

I bet he didn't...

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So you see, he really didn't have a bad experience with the shock-fence, and it wasn't associated with the people he tried to attack at all.

Not at all, being shocked and fearful of being near the shock zone at first, nothing bad about that and it has nothing to do with aggravating his fearful nature either where he's so bad he can't be consoled.

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I hope he is. I didn't realize Mondo was potentially dangerous when I got him (I would have been scared of him if I had), so I treated him the same way as all my dogs.

He's not confident in your leadership, but could be.

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Which is very kindly, especially at first, probably too indulgently, but I can yell if irritated and physically seem to threaten, at the most pushing them, without ever actually hitting or anything.

You know this is not good right?

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and once when annoyed about something else I screamed "GIT!!!" at him, and that kind of freaked him out, that's when he cowered and put his tail between his legs, and I felt bad.

My dog wouldn't react like that, he'd laugh at me. Your dog is obviously fearful and I'm not going to bother explaining it anymore.

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I don't think he is a dominant dog, necessarily (again, not sure if that really means anything; if it does, my 15 old hound dog who pushes my hand to be petted and forces the other dogs to lick her ears, but has run from me if I so much as look at her crossways, without EVER hitting her, is "dominant". All that pack leader and dominance stuff, I'm going to still have to be convinced of.)

No, none are dominant, just spoiled, don't worry about that. If a 15 y/o dog is spoiled...so? LOL

Tresa and Logan

My problem with this situation is there are so many dogs with sound temperaments being euth'd while people try and figure out how to change a dogs mind.

Any chance of video? It's impossible to give any good advice by your description because aggression is different for everyone.

If it is indeed fear cut your losses and get a good dog. I really can't even be around fearbiters, I hate it and feel it's best to euth them, of course this is just how I see it. Life is to short to manage a fearbiter.

If it's not fear then PLEASE take video of the clicker person clicking away at a dog that wants to chomp away, lol

Most people aren't cut out to deal with a problem dog like that. I had one named Ali and she would flip without warning, good thing is always I had control of her leash. This is how bad she was, once I was unloading her sister from a crate in the van. Some noise wigged Ali out, she jumped over the seat and flew over the crate and I CAUGHT her in midair. I couldn't do that again if I tried. She was terrified. Her sister took off into a field (thank goodness a harmless friendly dutch). I put her into the crate and used a t-shirt to get her sister back. She couldn't resist tearing up a prey-like t-shirt. LOL Very difficult to manage dogs like Ali.