I wouldn't take a dog jogging until he is fully physically mature. Otherwise there is too much strain on growing joints. I would wait until 18 months at least. Maybe others would after 12 months, but I wouldn't due endurance exercise until after 18 months.

I just wandered in to this conversation and find it interesting that so many recommend to Phil that he get a puppy. I have a problem with this. It’s impossible to predict how a puppy will turn out, no matter how good the breeding, not matter how many degrees his forbears have, no matter how many of them were in police service. It’s sorta like walking into a nursery in a hospital where all the infants are and saying this one will be a lawyer, this one a doctor, and this one and engineer. It’s impossible to predict how a given puppy will turn out. Even if his breeding is great, something may happen to him that will make him not a good prospect for a PPD later on.

If all you want is a dog that looks like he’ll protect and one that will bark, that’s fairly easy to get. Just get one of the breeds generally regarded to be “protective” and go out and play. Ninety–nine percent of the crooks will be dissuaded from bothering you.

But that final one percent . . . there’s the problem. They’re not going to be bothered by the presence of a barking dog. They’ll need to be bitten. Perhaps they’re in one (or more) of the “fatal four.” They’re drunk, drugged, determined or angry. If so, what little good sense they have is not going to stop them from wading past your barker and wreaking havoc on you, whether it’s money they want, your possessions, or your life.

Phil, for this reason I suggest that you don’t get a puppy, that you, instead get an adult dog that’s had some training. This way and ONLY this way can you get anything even close to a guarantee of what he’ll do when the chip are down.

Raising a sport dog from a puppy is quite something different than raising a dog that’s going to do personal protection. I don’t mean how you’ll raise the puppy, the exposure you’ll give him, the socialization that you’ll do. I mean what you expect from the end product.

Not to get into the old sport v. “real” dog discussion, but they are different. Many sport dogs will protect for "real" and many “real” dogs will do sport. But many sport dogs will NOT perform for real, when they’re getting the crap kicked out of them by some third striker or when they’re getting stabbed by some scumbag that wants your wallet. It’s the difference between taking martial arts for years and only sparring and going all out in an alley when your life is at stake.

If anyone here was in that alley when the scumbag pulled out his knife I'm sure that they’d rather have a proven streetfighter with them than the 3rd degree black belt who has never took a punch for real.

For those reasons I’d suggest that you get a dog that’s at least 18 months old. If he’s had prior training that’s ok. In fact you’d be pretty hard pressed to find a dog that hasn’t had some training by that age.

Then and only then can you test the balance and levels of his drives. The drives that will make him a dog that’s for show or for real.

There are lots of such tests. I use one that you can find at
http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/dog/StakeOut.htm

Most police departments in this country, who can’t afford to wait around and see if a puppy is going to grow into a “real” prospect, purchase imported dogs that have received some training in one of the sports, SchH, Ring, KNPV etc. They then convert them to street work.

I suggest that you do the same.

Sorry to throw this contrary opinion into the mix. Good luck, no matter which way you decide to go.

Not contrary at all, Lou. You agreed w/me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I wouldn't start w/a pup either, esp a novice. PD's don't buy dogs younger than 18 mos or so for the same reasons.

Ok So I am a sucker for a puppy. The raising and training is half the fun. The thing most people need is the dog that barks to take care of 99.9% of the problems you will run up against. Of that 0.1% of the remaining problems many will be armed in such a manner that the dog probably won't help or won't be with you anyway. The training is where most of the fun comes in.

There is a story in a book I have that goes like this. A woman was working as an overnight clerk in a convience store. She asked the boss if she could take her dog to work with her. The boss said ok. One night a guy comes in with a knife and says he wants the money. The dog wakes up and jumps up and puts his front feet on the counter, looking expectantly at the guy with the knife. The guy took one look at the dog and backed out of the store. The Afgan wouldn't have done a thing about the guy. It had been trained that everybody that came in would give him a treat, so he was waiting for his treat. The guy didn't know that, and the dog looked serious enough, so he gave up and left.

It sounds to me like Phil likes the dogs. I think he would miss out on a lot by buying an adult. Yeah you are taking a chance, but for me it has always been worth it and only one time have I not gotten what I wanted and that was my fault, not the dog's.

Well folks, some of you suggest an adult, some suggest a puppy. I've been thinking alot about your assistance, and still can't seem to figure it out.

There are pro's and con's to each decision. If I get a pup, I know how its trained, what its capable of, and know how to read it - plus, as was said, the training is half the fun.

On the other hand, an adult is good too. Since I'm nowhere near as experienced as most of you, the fact that I wouldn't have to completely train the dog is good (mainly maintance work, which is fine by me). Also I wouldn't have to wait for the dog to be grown up to be fully "street ready" (don't take that too literally please).

Does anyone have any suggestions of good places to go for an adult, trained, GSD? I know Ed usually dosen't (as I've asked), and I'm aware of the feelings on Baden on here (I have no experience so can't comment, just defer to those with said experiences). So where's the good places to go? I'd like to go with a well-regarded kennel, and comming from you folks here I'd hopefully have no problems.

Thanks (again LOL) for all the help folks. I'm learning alot from these boards. Thanks Ed, for even letting me post here without having to pay for it. The help is just outstanding.

Either way I go, pup or adult, I'll probally still pick up some of Ed's videos to add to my own knowledge and possibly give me ideas of further training options.

Phil the SP

It is my first time to post a message. Please
mind a language. I am from europe.

A gun: if You have the nerve to fire and shot a human beign, buy the gun. It is easier to learn how to shoot, than how to maintain an animal.

A dog: trained dog may not look up to you as a master. See Eds Dominance issues.
A DOG ia a beign, even when properly trained
DOG makes choices when in stress.

A story> during world war II. There were concentration camps along europe. Some officers of the SS troups used to keep dogs fo protection. Usual exercise was to bite train the dog on people during morning attention. People of choice were torn apart.

A point> once a group of russian children has been examined in a such a camp. An officer had a great DANE. He issued a FAS command on a little girl that was so little than she did not have any fear of dogs. The dog looked at the girl and killed the master byting the throat.

I would like to share a couple of observations on the subject of personal protection dogs, although I do so with considerable temerity given the extent of expertise possessed by the members of this board. Before, I do so, however, I would like to thank all of you, and especially Mr. Frawley for providing this forum and for freely sharing your expertise with novices like myself. I have been following the various topics on this board for some time now, in addition to reading the articles on the website and purchasing a couple of Leerburg videos through a friend. I don't believe I have ever encountered another group of people as knowledgeable and as generous with their time.

As I mentioned, I am stricltly a novice, although I have had working dogs of one sort or another sharing my life for most of my 51 years. I have a soft spot for German Shepherds, but I admit to a great sense of frustration at the way even working line dogs are bred these days, at least in my part of the country. I am on my third Shepherd at the moment, a female which I have raised from a pup to her current age of about 20 months. She has many fine qualities: high trainability, good hips and elbows, tons of prey drive, great retrieval drive, solid nerves in any situation I have yet found to take her into, pretty good initial bite work with an experienced helper, and yet, I am almost positive that she will never have the courage to do serious police or personal protection work. She is a female, of course, so in one sense many would not expect her to possess those qualities. (My daughter has a male Jack Russel, so I went with a female Shepherd to assist him in living to a ripe old age.)The dog this working line Shepherd is meant to replace, however, is also a female, and the two of them are very, very different dogs. The old dog is a female Fila, very close to the end of her life, unfortunately. She joined the family as a pup with family protection very much in mind. We live in a fairly safe part of the world, but we do live in the country where there is no effective police response on weekends. Also, my wife's work puts her in contact with some less than desirable people, and I am sometimes away with my work. Filas, by the way, are far from the perfect dog (if such a thing even exists). As a breed, they appear to have horrendous hip pproblems that are just now being addressed by some breeders. Their short coats make them less suitable than Shepherds for the Canadian climate, and mine at least is a very mediocre tracker with almost nonexistent prey and retrieval drive.

The behaviors that Fila breeders have been able to gentically instil in some Filas, however, is in my opinion, nothing short of remarkable, although I see no reason why Shepherd breeders couldn't do the same. (Possibly they have and I just haven't been able to find one.) At any rate, Filas, as you know, have a natural aversion to strangers which would probably make them quite undesirable for any purpose were it not balanced by a very strong pack drive. By socializing my pup very heavily, she was essentially educated (not trained, really) to look at everyone as a member of our extended family until they proved otherwise. She would love nothing better than to lie with her big head on a stranger's lap, just as she did with us. If, however, anyone acted aggressively towards a member of the family, she would re-categorize that person as one of the world's few bad people. I tested her with some experienced Schutzhund and police canine officers, and her response was always the same. From the age of about 12 months, she would go forward against any amount of threat. Her natural behavior was to try to go for a high arm bite, resulting in a knock-down and hold. Admittedly, she was a bit dangerous to work due to the seriousness with which she viewed the situation. In one of her test scenarios, she yanked the Schuthund arm off the helper, spat it out, and immediately went back for him. She was on lead, of course, so no acciddent occurred. For this reason, and due to the fact that she had so little prey drive, I do not think she would have made a good sport dog. She was, however, very good for our family's situation. By the way, out of three shepherds, a rottweiler, and a doberman (to name just the working breeds my wife and I have tried, this was the only one that in my opinion demonstrated true owner protection, as opposed to defending herself or her territory. Admittedly, this can cause them to make mistakes. As an example, this dog was once sleeping in the yard while a tradesperson ran back and forth from the back yard to his truck. (It was getting close to 5 o'clock and he was in a hurry to be finished.) He had had the usual friendly introduction to Brio (the Fila)and had then gone about his work. On about his fourth run, however, he changed course to jog over to get something from his partner, who was on the other side of me. He was therefore running right at me from the viewpoint of Brio (apparently still asleep). Out of the corner of my eye, I saw her launch herself on an interception course that would have taken the poor man down a few steps in front of me. I called her off, of course, and no harm was done. One thing I did do with her was a lot of obedience which your other correspondent would have to do as well of course. Call-offs are a bit of a problem if you are not engaged in sport work, I suppose. Brio learned hers herding livestock, but that isn't available to everyone.

I see by this point I owe all of you an apolgy for this posting which has turned into something I didn't really intend it to be. I know how annoying it is for someone to blather on about a great dog that no one has seen actually doing anything. My point is though, that mine isn't a particularly great dog, just an average dog from a pool with very particular genetics. I wonder if these genetics aren't what at least some of the non law enforcement, non sport people are looking for in a german shepherd? Thirty years ago, I probably could have driven you to a couple of farm yards not too far from here and found a dog somewhat like this, although perhaps not quite so extreme. I can't find one anymore, however. I did a lot of research in looking for my present shepherd, and while she is a wonderful dog in many respects and will of course spend her life with us, she can't hold a candle to the Fila as a family protection dog. I can't help but wonder why not?

Welcome aboard! Your english is just fine as well as your point.

Greg Coates,

I think you are running up against 2 seperate issues. First is the genetics and the expectations for the dog. As Schutzhund and other sports has become an end rather than a begining the dogs are changing to meet that need. It isn't just in the US either, it is happening in Germany too. Lets face it, there is more money in Schutzhund dogs than in PD or PP dogs. The other thing is that even "experienced trainers" are training for sport and not for PP or PD use. Certain chacteristics, such as territoriality, are seen as a drawback rather than an asset. Even with a well trained dog it is a pain to have to pull them off the door when someone knocks. People not involved with protection training don't want a dog that is going to be territorial. So people are breeding to get that out.

Training is another issue. Again there is more money in sport training than there is in PP or PSD. It is expensive and time consuming to train a dog right. Most people don't know what a real protection dog is. If they did most wouldn't want one. So you get some trainers out there that take "sharp" dogs that bark at everything and get them to make some prey bites in very controled situations and call it a PPD. People accept that as a trained dog, the go away with the dog and never do any proofing or follow up maintance training and live in bliss. In most cases they have what they need, which is a dog that will bark and scare away the odd burgalar that shows up and that is about it.

Having recognized this, I have discovered I had to make a choice. I could accept a dog in a breed I like the looks of, but won't do what I want or I can get a new breed that has a higher probability of getting a dog that will do what I want. I have gone to getting what I want. I am now on my 4th breed for protection dogs. Temperament problems, genetic health problems, and lack of prey drive or defensive drives have all lead me to new breeds. What you have seen with your Fila is one reason I keep going to rarer and rarer breeds. There are still some good dogs in all the breeds. Ed and some others produce the type of GSD you want. There are similar breeders in other breeds, they are just hard to find. By selecting a breed that is still used in a method closer to the original purpose of the dog. If you look at breeds and a large perchentage of the breed is still working at the task you desire, the breed will provide a gold mine of acceptable dogs. You may need to look at the breed chacteristics as some of them will not fit every need, but there are a lot of good breeds out there that maintain the chacteristics needed.

I'm a realative new comer to the board and thought it was time to throw in my two cents regarding PPD adult vs training a puppy.

Several years ago I purchased a "green" PPD GSD female and "finished" her with my trainer/seller. This was my first esperience with PPD and I was very fortunate.
Having owned many dogs I was humbled to find out how little I knew about dogs, particularly dogs that do bite work. I would say it was much more difficult to train me than my dog! Fortunatley we both survived and I am blessed to own a fabulous PPD that I grew with and tested in a multitude of situations so that I know she would protect me at all costs. Might I also add that I can take this same dog to my classroom, I am a special educ teacher, and she is a lover with my students. However due to an injury she is now semi-retired as my PPD.

I recently purchased a puppy as a PPD candidate from a reputable breeder that I researched well. Yes, I know its still a crap shoot. I am quite pleased with him so far although he is still young. However, with a puppy bred for this work, and I do believe genetics are critical, there are behaviors you must be prepared to deal with in mouthy, drivey puppies. And the rest of your household must be equipped to deal with them as well.

It sounds like you have some experience and a wealth of guidance to call upon in whatever decision you make. Good luck and enjoy the security of a real PPD!

Nancy

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