Scott007
Years ago I used to show horses, I started very young, worked with a profesional trainer serveral times a week, the horses were not mine but were all very well trained and very expensive. When I got out of showing I started training for myself, not to show until I met a 7yr old gelding, a long story short he wasnt trained and had other problems but I found I had realy learned alot from showing others horses. It took a while but I finaly took him to an open (amiture) horse show. Most of the others there were riding fancy expensive animals and had a trainer to show them what to do. We took 5th out of 30 riders. Not a win but not bad.
For me it was not the winning but the getting there. I guess I would say if your just starting out learning, a dog that is already trained and a prof. trainer can provide you with the foundation to EVENTUALLY move on to raising and training your own. Just depends on wether you are more interested in the trophies or in doing the work from start to finish. You have to decide what you want and how to get there. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

First Scott thank you for the compliments. Also, please don't take this personal. If you have been reading my previous posts you know my style by now. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I don't believe it is effecting the sport at all. Here is my reasoning. Most people are weekend warriors on the field.(ducking so I don't get hit). They are there with there loveable dog having fun, more fun socializing on the sidelines while others work their dogs. They are there for the commraderie and fun. In each club there are going to be a couple who are all 'business'. However, as others have stated, I never stepped on the field for anyone but myself. I have never given a rip what others have thought about me or my training. I am there for my love of dogs, and to see what my dog and I can accomplish.

As for someone stepping on the field and whipping up on me for the first time, would I whine. Nope. The only one I am competing against is me. If I got beat, I got beat either by a better dog or a better handler. In either case, it is easily remedied. If I want to pursue that. My goal is to get each dog to its genetic potential. Rocky is a great example. He is a fantastic dog. Bought with all his titles. However, there has been a lot of cleanup in the obedience part. I am hurting in the protection part I can't find a good helper. HIs tracking and Obedience are great. Is that because of his previous training? I doubt it. I have changed everything.

This person that just steps on the field for the first time and scores high. You still don't know about all the prep the new handler had to do with the dog. There is a bonding process. There is a getting to know each others moves and moods. There is a lot of effort to do ANYTHING well. It is also easy to succomb to the rumor mill. Anytime anyone does something well enough there is always someone to tear them down. Someone to say they cheated.

Scott,
That professionals winning the coveted wins at Nationals jack up training prices is a given in my view...but only prices to those who's primary goal is to get on the cover of the Sch USA mag.

From my limited experience/observation (in this region), many of the very competitive clubs here have an elitist culture that functions to discouage newcomers. One particular club here, associated with a training school, seldom accept newbies, never one with a pup, and usually are only interested in new members if (1) they can offer $$$ to their trainers or (2) have a trained dog going to big competitions that thus will make their school look good.

Having said that, there are also clubs who will offer a newbie the opportunity to train a pup to a sch title but you have to search them out. These will require the more reasonable fees that Kevin mentioned (ie, our club charges $200/yr). My observation is that these type clubs are not populated with people that have a big interest in trialing at the National level, but rather meet and train for the sheer love of the animal and desire to test their communication skills with a four legged partner. More in line with the numerous Sch. clubs that populate Germany. As mentioned several times in this thread, for many people the fun is in the journey (training) not so much the destination (winning scores).

Where you train depends on your goal then. If the primary goal is to win the Nationals, then is it really important as to who trains the dog? Afterall, the dog (any dog) needs only to perform so the human can win the prize. I would say: buy the best trained dog you can afford and practice the routines at a club whose members work toward similar goals. If you have a really awesome dog, such a club will come looking for you... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If the goal is to test your own ability to train a dog from pup to the best performance you, as a team, can attain, then is it really important that a professional entry might get more points? Every human and dog has limitations, and if you can train to those limitations, then wouldn't you be a winner? And if you want to showcase your skills, there are always the HOT tournaments....

BTW, you may see from the way I worded all this that I have a definate and unabashed bias. s'ok.
If everyone had the same opinions it would be a boring world wouldn't it...? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I think I get where Scott is coming from in a way. There is a woman in a club that I have known for a few years. She purchased two pups from a well-known breeder of working dogs, from someone on the board, and none of them turned out to be half way good sport dogs. She then went off and had a 10 month old German Shepherd Male imported from Germany. The dog was suppose to be biting hard on the hard arm on the post, and great ball drive. The dog came in, looked ok in the airport, and the woman took him home for about a month. Now at this time everyone looked at this woman as she was just starting out and knew nothing, which is the case. Even the new comers could see it. Well the guy that imported the dog got a call and she said take him back, he is biting at me, I think it was the drive was too much, and I slapped him,(he was playing) and stuff of the kind. The dog became hand-shy and spooky. How many times she hit him; I don't know.

Well about 3 months later she got a finished SCH3 bitch that had real 290 scores in Germany, and scored her first run 280, then I think 282 as they started the dog on the Gottfried way of training. Her next trial she failed. Then the next time almost again. So she went to another trainer, who understood how this dog worked and trained with her for about two weeks, and she entered a trial, and won with a 292 or 293.

Now there were people that seen oh she is doing great, so lets follow her. But in truth, it was not her, it was the dog and the prior owners training that made them. She had the money to spend. Along with the help as we all need from other people. To this day, she cannot really train. But some think she can as she has V'd a few times. It is mis-leading. She has imported other dogs herself, and really the scores go right to the ground, as she has no idea how to train, but some think she does. SHe acts like she does.

It is kinda like Gottfried with his training. Most of the top dogs were not trained with his method. And most of the dogs that they tried to train, never make it to the top with that method. But he has led people to believe that his method produced the dog teams that he promotes as his students. It is false.

Again there is nothing wrong with showing a finsihed dog. Alot of dogs World Wide are titled by others before they are in the big trials. ALot of people cannot train a dog from scratch so choose that route. Some guys see a good dog that someone cannot handle or that they know they can make better, so they grab it and train it and show it. Some are just rich and do it for that reason, because they want the best, or what they think is, and they cannot produce it. You meet a lot of diffrent people in the sport. But what I can say is that in America we have not titled our share of pups to the big trials. But again Schutzhund is still new to the States. It has been in Europe alot longer. Most of the trainers in Europe that are showing their own pup raised dogs, or HOT dogs, have been in the sport for at least 20 or so years. You find the odd one that has not but this is noramlly the case. It is becoming more popular to train your own dog, but I think it will be a few more years before we see them at the top. Everyone likes to use Ivan B. as an example. But he has been around dogs for a number of years now. But again it takes alot of time to train a dog for high level sport and some people are not willing to put in the time to raise a dog, and then start to train it and the dog is almost two, and find out that the dog does not have what it takes, and start over again. They may never see a World Team for 10 years, if this is thier goal. So it is easier to buy the dog already trained. This is why Police Depts. do not raise pups. IT costs too much time, and effort and in the end, alot of the times, you do not get what you want or need.

I guess I look at Schutzhund training and my dogs alot different than Scott007. I LOVE training and working with my dogs. I was extremely blessed in that my first dog is 1/2 American BYB and 1/2 german. We got his SchIII with never failing a trial. Not super scores, but successful with a dog that would do bite work until he dropped dead.
I never considered that I was competing against the others in the trial. I was only competing against myself and self proof of what Chance and I could do as team. (beating a "big name trainer" from Germany for HIT for Chances's II was neat, though.) The only thing that ever concerns me is the people putting on seminars promoting their training methods when their competition dogs are purchased with most or all of their titles. Understanding that it is hard to find a good helper when you are the only or main one in the club and it takes a great trainer to maintain a top level dog.
I am so glad of the HOT tournimant hope to someday be able to compete with my own dogs. I would like to see more national recognition given at the larger trials to HOT dogs. My 2cents worth and I'll probably get change. CH

 Quote:

I would like to see more national recognition given at the larger trials to HOT dogs.

I seem to remember that USA Mike Hamilton mentioned at a meeting a desire that the HOT Tournament be a championship and qualifier for the world team. (I don't suppose that issue has been decided yet...?)

And oh, yeah...he advocates "no entry fee" for future HOT tournament; the purpose is to enhance and recognize HOT dogs.

The only thing that bothers me is that the HOT here is used to train new trial judges...thus they nit-pic A LOT! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dogma said:
I seem to remember that USA Mike Hamilton mentioned at a meeting a desire that the HOT Tournament be a championship and qualifier for the world team. (I don't suppose that issue has been decided yet...?)

Do you know how he intends or suggests to do this? What I am asking how would he seperate the HOT World Quailfier from the normal W.Q?

On another note, I have met some great trainers that have not titled dogs from scratch, and would train with them any day. It takes alot of time to prepare a dog for a big trial. And even if a dog comes from Europe trained, there are very few dogs that will work at the same level with a new handler, unless that handler has an idea and a certain amount of skill in handling and training.

I know a guy that I know could train a dog to Sch 3 from a pup, but does not have acess to a great training decoy, so he chooses to purchase a dog that can progress on a trial type decoy. This is not that uncommon. This is where I feel we in the USA lack in schutzhund. We have very few good training decoys in one area. It also is becoming a problem in Germany from what I have been told. There are a ton of good trial decoys, but none of them can work and develope a young dog. So what is one to do?

If someone wants to buy a great dog, and show it , and place high then that is great. The only problem I have with that is if that person claims to be a trainer, and uses that win to quailfy it. This is wrong.

Actually Scott I understand where you are coming from. I have been in the sport for awhile now and I will tell it it does irritate me at times to see a novice walk out on the field with a trained dog and pretend it's their own work. How is anyone to learn the triumphs and tribualtions of actually TRAINING/TEACHING a dog and understanding the learning process for both the dog and handler without trying it from scratch. It also irritates me to see a novice walk out on the field with a dog they have no business owning (a dog way too much for a novice, dominant etc...) because they have the money to "buy" themselves into the sport. I think in order to be a better handler, trainer you need to trial a dog in all the levels. It gives you a sense of how a dog progresses and how long it actually can take to train one. But that doesn't make me any less proud of my dogs and their accomplishments. I trialed at the GSD Nationals and ended up with a 91,90,90 was jumping up and down with glee cause I had set a goal of a 270 and I got one point higher. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Karmen
Dante- SchH III owner, breeder, handler, trainer
2 National events and soon to be a third <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Plus Karmen... those imports don't come with the command "show me your weenie" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Todd

You used conformation as an example of showing against professionals. When my daughters were in their teens, they thrived on beating the pros and finished a number of dogs to their championships. They also beat a number of pros in putting on OB titles. My philosophy has always been to go in the ring with the attitude that "they" had to worry about me. I'm going to carry that into the training of my next dog(working GSD). Arogant? HELL YES!
Scott
Don't complain, train, and kick ass.