you missed my point.

If a dog is conditioned to feel a nick at the same time that he hears a command always and forever.....

it would not matter which of the two he received (the command or the nick) he is going to perform the bahavior.. right?

So it becomes pretty hard to distinguish that either/or is a punisher as both are signals to perform an activity.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Valdes:
Actually if the dog changes his behavior after the command and nick are applied then "yes" I would say the command takes on properties of a conditioned punisher.

No.. one has to take into account whether the subjects views the stim as a punisher or not.... like you stated above, used at a very low level the nick is more of a vibration than a sting, it is like a tap, not painfull, and not likely to create an avoidance response in a driven working dog.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Valdes:
It doesn't matter how the dog responds to the command, he will always get the nick, the nick contributes in creating the instant response to the command.

No, the instant response was already there.. the nick simply encourages the response to remain instant... More of a "clarifier" than a "punisher".

 Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Valdes:
Actually if the dog changes his behavior after the command and nick are applied then "yes" I would say the command takes on properties of a conditioned punisher.

And let's say that you were using high levels of stim, and it was clearly taught as an avoidance exercise.... Do you think that because of the pairing of the command with the stim, that a command to act, could also be a conditioned punisher?

granted, that is a completely different discussion! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I wish you could show me in person. I'd like to try a little experiment. First, I'd like to take an untrained dog and a bag of yummy treats. Every time that dog sat, I'd not say a word and give a treat. Predictably, the dog would start to sit more and more, in hope of getting the treat (this is how positive reinforcement works).

Then I'd like to take another untrained dog, and every time the dog sat apply that low level, momentary stim (without saying a word). I would be VERY interested to see if you got an increase in sitting or a decrease. I would bet money you'd see a decrease in sitting (or possibly no change). IF there was an increase in sitting (the way it works with a treat), that would truly be fascinating to me, and would make the example you are giving much more feasible, IMO. But I just don't think it would happen that way.

I must not be understanding something. If you took a dog and were using the e-collar and gave a verbal command and the dog complied why would you give a stim? Whether you are using e-collar or pinch if the verbal command works then why give a correction or low stim? I am sorry if I missed something or sound dense, and you can all slap me around later but that comparison made no sense to me. I just did an experiment with the clicker, on a dog that you could say was pretty much untrained. I wanted to prove to myself that the methods I use, which is a balance of positive re-enforcement and motivational correction, were not the hidious tactics that the PP training population wanted me to believe. Well I loaded the dog just like I was suppose to and used the first command that I thought the dog would respond to SIT, I got the dog to sit, did the click, and before I could give the dog the treat it shut right down. I kept at it and everytime I would mark the behavior with the click, it shut down again. I stopped for the day. The next day I used the pinch collar, because sit was already there, we did downs. The dog did not shut down on me and in just several drills did the down with out even giving motivation with the collar. Would I have gotten better results with just the clicker PP, and a treat well obviously not.

Ann,
What do you mean by "shut down" ??
Karen

 Quote:

Originally posted by Ann Kramer:
I must not be understanding something. If you took a dog and were using the e-collar and gave a verbal command and the dog complied why would you give a stim? Whether you are using e-collar or pinch if the verbal command works then why give a correction or low stim? I am sorry if I missed something or sound dense, and you can all slap me around later but that comparison made no sense to me. I just did an experiment with the clicker, on a dog that you could say was pretty much untrained. I wanted to prove to myself that the methods I use, which is a balance of positive re-enforcement and motivational correction, were not the hidious tactics that the PP training population wanted me to believe. Well I loaded the dog just like I was suppose to and used the first command that I thought the dog would respond to SIT, I got the dog to sit, did the click, and before I could give the dog the treat it shut right down. I kept at it and everytime I would mark the behavior with the click, it shut down again. I stopped for the day. The next day I used the pinch collar, because sit was already there, we did downs. The dog did not shut down on me and in just several drills did the down with out even giving motivation with the collar. Would I have gotten better results with just the clicker PP, and a treat well obviously not.

I don't want to reiterate the entire conversation, but someone is claiming that low level stim can be positive reinforcment. Which is what my experiment would be testing.

About your clicker issues. It is always fairly amusing to me that someone that is new to clicker "tests" it out compared to their tried and true method, then prounounces that clicker training didn't work. In all likelihood, the way you did it didn't work, but I am sure that I (or someone else experienced with the clicker) would have better luck. I can think of several things off the top of my head that should have been done differently in your example. It would be like me taking an e-collar, trying it out once on my dog, and pronouncing it doesn't work. Clearly the e-collar does work. I just don't know how to work it. Same with the clicker. (And just as an aside, my first clicker dog shut down on me big time. No other dog ever has since, and she now works great with it, too, so I can only assume the deficiency was in me, not the method)

What I meant by shut down is, crindged away, ears dropped, and the apperance of doing something wrong. No I might not be an expert with the clicker, but this is not the first time I have seen this happen. I have watched several other trainers who use the clicker regularly have the same response from dogs. I am not saying it does not work, but how else would you do it. You load the dog, start working, mark the behavior and treat. What did I miss?

Where were you making the clicker go off? If around the head and ears, it can actually hurt the dog...that little sucker is loud. I've hurt my ears trying to keep it from sounding off near my dog's ears. Consequently, you should make a conscious effort to keep the clicker away from the dog's head.

Also, how did you load the clicker? The dog must actively turn and look to you for it's treat before you commence working with the clicker.

Last, in clicker training, you do not pair a verbal command to the behaviour until the dog is doing the behaviour consistently. So, you would lure the dog into a sit, click and treat. Once the dog is offering the behaviour to you during a training session (on a consistent basis), then you give the command, lure the behaviour (if needed), click and treat.

A good description on getting started in clicker training can be found at:

http://www.clickandtreat.com/Clicker_Training/ClickStart/clickstart.htm

Personally, the clicker is only one tool that I utilize for training. I own a clicker, prong collar, e-collar and now a head halter (as I've found one where the leash clips at the back of the head rather than under the chin). I also use a lot of play in obedience training as well.

Natalie
http://alikamalinois.tripod.com

I had the clicker in my right hand well away fromt the dogs ears. I loaded the dog by clicking, attention, treat and I did this about 30 times. I did not use verbal praise during the process. I should have stopped during the loading process because I noticed that the dog had some problems with it. Like I said I am not condeming this method it's just that to me it is another step that I do not need to mess with. I don't always even use a training collar, I have them if needed but some dogs just don't need them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />