Travis, it's obvious that you are no more than a hopped-up kid. I was working dogs when your mother was still powdering your ass, now go away, you bring nothing to the table.

David, I’m not in total disagreement with many of the assessments regarding my dog. I had the advantage of seeing him work live at the Sieger Show in Ulm 2 years ago. I did not judge him based on a video. I saw the shallow grip and chewing on the sleeve. In my honest opinion and assessment of the dog I felt then, and know now, that many of his issues were training related, not genetic.
Too many of the show line dogs have paper titles rushed on them so they can be bred for beauty and $, I can’t deny that for a minute, but there are still some reputable people out there that have the welfare of the breed in their hearts and try their best to do the right thing. It’s great to be passionate about what you do, but it’s wrong to be an extremist and not appreciate the finer points of both sides.
You have to remember that my preference at this time is towards the show lines. It can not be argued that they don’t have the same level of drives or working ability as the working lines, It’s a fact. You must believe that he was one of the better working dogs out of about 200 that I saw as disturbing as that may sound!
His conformation was rated middle of the road (V119). What I did see was a dog that was eager to engage by show standards and more importantly I saw a dog with great hips, health and temperament that was passing that on to his progeny. The pups from him that I saw ranged in age from about 3 months to 1 ½ years old. Many already had there hips cleared and showed good character. That’s more than can be said of a lot of the “flavor of the month” VA dogs.
The weakness in the working ability of the show lines is not something that will be corrected anytime soon. That does not mean that a dog of his caliber should be culled from the breeding pool. Let’s face it, if you’re into a hard working dog you would have a working line shepherd or a Mal anyway. As far as what the dog has to offer, if you were to call me and request a pup out of him that you wanted to use for competition I would steer you somewhere else. If you wanted a pup that had the cards stacked in his favor in regards to being genetically sound in health and temperament and still have the ability to work at a decent level than I would honestly and with no reservations recommend a pup from my dog. Even though I don’t breed for a living, and I don’t expect that the minimal amount of pups that I’ll put out there in my lifetime will have a positive or negative impact on the breed either way, I’m not naïve enough to know that the majority of my pups will end up in pet homes where quite frankly most people looking for this type of pup would not know how to, nor want deal with a super high drive pup. It would be a sure ticket to the shelter.
So if you want to debate show lines vs. working lines in regards to working ability there is no debate. As long as I can remember there has always been a divide between the two fanciers. But get a grip and understand that what I’m doing, and what many other show line breeders are doing will in no way be the downfall or end all of the breed, after all there are plenty of working line fanatics out there to see that that doesn’t happen.
That brings me to one last point. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, that’s what makes this wonderful world what it is, however there is a right and wrong way of doing it. I would not have paid much attention to the evaluation of my dog had it been restricted to this site, but by trying to publicly humiliate someone by posting comments under their dogs name, on their website, I believe that’s crossing the line.
As I stated before, I put it all out there for anyone to judge and come to their own conclusions as to whether they like my dog or not. It’s really simple, if you don’t like him, don’t use him. No harm done.

The GSD is a working dog. The desire to preserve this does not make a person an extremist. It does not make one narrow minded and unable to appreciate the finer points of both sides, there are no two sides. There is only one. I find it more radical to create a "working" dog that is unable to work.Its simple, if a person wants a dog for a pet, admire the GSD but get another breed. The answer is not to change the breed for those who wish it was something other than what it is. There is nothing noble in taking part in removing the working ability of a working dog through selective breeding.That is extreme.I can understand that you dont like to hear people rag on your dog. It is what it is. From what I saw there was alot of room for improvement through training.If you done that then great. But I believe you should lick your wounds and leave it alone. As youve basicly said your dog has nothing to offer to the working GSD.There are no other finer points/traits to be breeding for with in the breed.

I posted under your video because "YOU ALLOWED FOR COMMENTS." If, you can not handle the comments then remove that function.

The main reason I posted here was to get an honest appraisal of your dog. Any person thinking of breeding your dog should be aware of what others might think. You admitted his bite was shallow and he chewed on the sleeve. This dog and the others like it that are being bred and sold under the pretence that it can show and or work as a protector. Would make the founder of this breed Captain Max von Stephanitz spin in grave.

Nowhere in my comments did I accuse you of trying to make a quick buck. I did say however, I though groups like sch that pass inferior dogs just because they are pretty are making the quick buck. That people who favor actual working dogs should not support these organizations that lower standards so, that the organization can make a few more dollars titling crappy dogs.That goes for show or working lines if the dog doesn't have strong nerves and bite; as well as the agility to jump a one meter barrier and get over a 6 ft wall; not to mention track with precision it shouldn't pass. We shouldn't lower standards for working dogs because show dogs can't perform the minimum in sch. We should demand show breeder start producing dogs that can perform and exceed the minimum.

By the way, Stephanie has worked as a decoy for 7 yrs in Belgium. If,she has opinion of your dog it is from working dogs at her club. If, you were to take the time to read some of her post on here. She started decoying showline GSD and was defending them until she actually put on the sleeve and work a real working GSD. She saw the light and move to our side, because she has seen the huge gulf between the two lines abilities.

As for me, I am not a she. I'm novice when it comes to working dogs. I have owned GSD's for about 20 years and I can tell you the quality has gone down in American and German showlines. Fewer of them, can actually work and very few can do agility. I breaks my heart that alot of Police departments will not look at the breed. If, you haven't noticed Mal's are taking over. I hope like hell that Malinois are not destroyed in this country like show and BYB breeders have done the GSD.

I have recently bought a pup out of 2004 Wusv Champion and a Belgian import. If he bites like your dog I'll have him neutered because I wouldn't want to pass on crappy genes.That what responsible owners should do, evaluate their dog objectively if it can not work or is piss poor at it, one should not breed it. GSD shouldn't be bred because it is pretty it should be bred to honor what the founder of the breed envisioned a dog that can work many jobs.

If you would like to further your comments with me, please pm or email me.

Tracy Brown

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Even though I don’t breed for a living, and I don’t expect that the minimal amount of pups that I’ll put out there in my lifetime will have a positive or negative impact on the breed either way,

So you shouldn't breed, if 8 pups born have the ability to reproduce you do have an impact, a breeder is "SUPPOSE" to offer pups that are going to improve the breed in which he is breeding. A breeder is always suppose to strive to contribute to the betterment of his breed. To Breed without that goal in mind is what your saying in the above quote, is saying that your a backyard breeder who will make a few bucks off some pups and that is as far as this situation is set to go. When I breed a litter, I'm going to because I want to put together a combo that will out shine the good parents that I have put together (which by your statement above is not your intentions), If not I'll cut that dogs family tree short.

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The weakness in the working ability of the show lines is not something that will be corrected anytime soon.

Your statement leads one to believe that show breeders pass the buck, and wait for the next man to save the breed. Why don't you do your part as a so called breeder. If "YOU" feel your dog is a good dog, thats good, but just because a dog is a good dog "DOES NOT MEAN IT SHOULD BE BRED".

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His conformation was rated middle of the road (V119). What I did see was a dog that was eager to engage by show standards and more importantly I saw a dog with great hips, health and temperament that was passing that on to his progeny.

But your forgetting something, the GSD wasn't created for to breed a dog with good hips, and all that, thats breeders trying to correct a now developed problem, the goal of the breed, was a "WORKING DOG"

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and still have the ability to work at a decent level than I would honestly and with no reservations recommend a pup from my dog.

"Working at a decent level" that is the same as me telling my kids, they don't need to strive to be president, or a supreme court judge, or a leading heart specialist, they can be content with a Micky D's manager making 35,000 a year, (which is decent in the south) but why not strive for better than just settling for decent. THOSE ARE YOUR WORDS NOT MINE.

Tracy, excuse me for confusing your gender. If you’re going to be honest then do it.
The main reason you posted here was to try to have a little fun with like-minded people at the expense of someone else, plain and simple. You didn’t need to also post under my dogs video. I didn’t set up the comment field on the site; the video provider has that feature built in. You also didn’t need to get an honest appraisal; you made your mind up after viewing the video. My dog can produce stock that can be shown, and will protect in the home or on the street.
He, and many other show line dogs may not produce the type of drives that will score high in competition, but not everyone who owns a German Shepherd is looking for a point dog.
Yes David, the GSD along with other breeds is a working dog; however the desire to preserve that does make you an extremist when you only focus on one aspect of the work. A GSD doesn’t have to present the best bite work to be able to contribute in other areas.
The German shepherd dog is a jack of all trades and master of none. There are breeds that bite better, track better, run faster etc. The point is they don’t have to be the best at scoring points in trials, but they should be well rounded and able to function in the real world free of health and temperament issues or genetic disease.
I would imagine that if many of the law enforcement agencies are turning to mals and leaving the shepherd behind that the working dog breeders are not doing such a great job of producing dogs that can do the work either. What does that say? The dog’s not only ugly but can’t function either? Now if I was an extremist such as yourself and many others who have posted here that would be my response. I however choose the high road. I can find the good in both lines without trashing the other.
If you can’t hit a ball as far as Barry Bonds should you be culled from the human race?
Sounds ridiculous doesn’t it?....Think about it.
It’s great to have an opinion, it’s wrong to force your opinion on others and to do it with a lynch mob mentality.
Have fun, whether that’s working your dog, or living your life through the computer.
Who am I to judge?

Andrew has been pretty congenial in my book and given you his honest opinion. What do you want from him? He has admitted the short commings of his dog. He also feels his dog has some promise.

I mean all dogs have some fault. Heck, I like my German Shepherd to actually look like a German Shepherd which cannot be said of some of the "working shepherds" I have seen.
No the the dog is not a tear your face off dog like we saw in the clip Will posted but he looked like beautiful healthy Shepherd that needed some more work which appears he is gettting.
Lets take for example the clip Will posted I bet everyone would be drooling to breed one of those Mals.. Yet in addition to thier toughness I also saw one of those dogs bite the c&*p out of his handler. Is that dog deficient? Should that dog be neutered?
All dogs have faults They all have good and bad days. Not everyone who has a German Shepherd Dog wants a tear a&* dog.
Some of us want a good reliable family German Shepherd that will scare the bad guys when they come to the door. After all as I have said before if a bad comes through a barking GSD then you will need more than a dog.

JMHO

"A GSD doesn’t have to present the best bite work to be able to contribute in other areas."

Andrew,

But, if the dog is showing avoidance behavior in such a basic test - I would question the temperament of the dog. And that will show up in the other areas. If this is, as you say, a training issue - post a new video of the dog working on a strange helper and strange field, possibly in a SCH trial.

Shallow grips, canine bites and avoidance of the stick is not always a training issue. If it is, great and post how the dog is doing with the "better training"

And before you jump all over me in defense of your dog and comments and go off on another tangent - I have a show female that has been titled (SCH2) and breed surveyed on strange fields, strange helpers (strong working helpers). She does not need to be heated up to work on the field and the Sieger show work is one of the easiest routines to do with the softest helper work. And we have all working dogs as the remainder so I really do know the difference.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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My dog can produce stock that can be shown, and will protect in the home or on the street.

yeah right, your dog was showing aviodance of a helper that was extremely soft on the dog, the deog looking away and being aphrehensive of the stick, he wasnt even driven in all reality by the decoy, and you mean to tell me that your dog could protect in a real life situation!!! YOUR DOG HAS NOTHING BUT AN AVERAGE AMOUNT OF PREY DRIVE when it comes to work, there was no defensive or offensive behavior,that was obvious by the clip, if your dog had to choose between fight or flight in a real life situation, he would look back to you like he did in the video and he would take off running the other direction like he almost did in the video. if you think you have a dog that would protect in real life situations and on the 'street' you are a complete and utter idiot, i wish someone like will or ed would read that you wrote that! that is a

Andrew if I wanted to start something I would have posted your dog's video on other sites that are extremely radical.Believe me those folk would rip you a new one. This forum is tame because we look at subject and you will get reasoned answers from a wide variety of dog lovers. I gave my opinion on your dogs video I hope people thinking of breeding with your dog take a look read our opinions and make up their own mind. I didn't posted here to hold you up for ridiculed if you look at my other post down the active topics you will see I ask who was the last show dog that could actually work. Your dog can't if you can't come to grips than nothing I or anyone else says will make a difference.

David is not extremist for believing German Shepherds should be able to work. Show dogs that can not shouldn't be bred. Organizations that pass crappy dogs for a dollar should fold up.People that are serious about breeding GSD should only bred the best and cull the rest by spaying or neutering and selling for pets.

Your comments about Travis tell alot about you. Here's a young man who is decoying at two sch clubs a couple times a week taking bites from different level dogs. If you have a problem with his critic of your dog, explain why you think he is wrong but don't go after him personally.

The main reason police departments are going to Mal's is price and the fact too many GSD breeders are trying to cash in on selling Yuppies, fat out of shape show dogs and crappy working dogs with bad hips and other health problems for twice the price. Instead of doing the hard work of building up and creating viable working lines. If you look at my other post there is a show stud people should have used. Use a proven dog there are a couple of show dogs that compete in BSP they can bite,track and have athletic ability. Your analogy of Barry Bonds is stupid if I were breeding for a power hitter I would cull everyone who couldn't hit the ball that is why we average folk have fantasy baseball clinics. It is call selective breeding for a reason.

Trent, I understand your point, but Andrew mentioned that he wanted a "middle of the road" dog, and to me the GSD isn't, or shouldn't be, a middle of the road breed. If that's what he wants, then he should get a lab.

I say this because I started out thinking the same thing. I liked shepherds, and I wanted an intelligent dog that could be trained and would bark. But then when we went to go get the pup, I got the chance to see Cindy work his dad Xando in obedience. The dog wasn't absolutely perfect (she'd only just started his training) but it was obvious there was something about the way that dog carried himself that wasn't like any other dog I'd seen, and it inspired me to do some thinking about what these dogs are about. I realized that I had something of a duty to see that my dog reach his potential, and to see if he was worthy or not of adding something to the breed.

The other thing I soon found out was that there are a lot of really stupid people out there who think they're dog breeders. At ten weeks old, I had breeders asking me if I would loan him out for stud. 10 weeks - what on earth can you know about a dog at that age? They didn't care, they just saw he had a green ear and their pupils suddenly turned to dollar signs.

Maybe my philosophy makes me one of the extremists, but my personal conviction is that a GSD should be bred as originally intended. A working dog. I could care less now what they look like, and I don't think the breed should be shown in conformation. I don't think of SchH as a sport, but as a confirmation of the dog's abilities. That doesn't mean that Mika and I don't go out there to have a good time. It just means that if I find that my dog doesn't have what it takes, then I won't bother trialing him, and I certainly won't breed him. Middle of the road just won't cut it.

jd