I've been training dogs for over 10 years. That sounds great until I tell you that I'm 21 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I run a small rescue for dogs with severe behavior problems.

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Flooding is a method of training where you force the dog to overcome his fear by making him face it; forcing them into an overwhelming situation. If my definition is wrong anyone can feel free to correct me, I've never used this method. I've assimilated it to my fear of bugs. Imagine my parents had dragged me to a nest of bees or spiders attempting to help me overcome my fear of them

Yes and no. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In example, the dog I was describing before, was hand/foot shy. After she learned sit and down, I started by standing near her, wiggling my toes, then tapping my toes, then sliding my foot, then making small steps. Next session, I had a friend with huge feet shuffle by in stocking feet, the walk normally, then wearing shoes. Later, walking in cirles around her. Then sliding my foot towards her, working all the way up to being able to pet her with my feet, walk normally without her shying away and making striking movements with my foot without a fear reaction.

There are very few situation in which flooding should be aversive. Flooding is not necessarily overwhelming, but it is pressure to a degree.

I guess it really doesn't matter if you're 12, if you have the experience and hands on knowledge that's what counts <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What you described as flooding is what I thought of as desensitization!! I've dealt with various issues with my dogs and later read something and thought, oh, that's what I did, that's what it's called? It has a name? lol I'm going to just stay away from technique names from now on because what I perceive and envision things to be, seem to be way off... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

If you do a search on flooding and one on desensitization maybe you'll see what I mean. From the things I've read on flooding and than seeing Caesar Milan drag a dog fearful of water straight into the pool - that's how I came to my vision of it. The things you described from the cars, to feet are what I perceived to be desensitization. I work best when I'm thrust into a situation and just have to deal with it without thinking too much or reading and theorizing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks a lot for your explanation Anne! As an aside, I like the no nonsense approach CM uses with aggressive dogs.

Just FYI, I don't really care what methods other people use with their dogs. Whatever works! I just know I have to be careful with Montana because I worked hard to get him to be confident and I'm afraid that doing the wrong thing with him could set him back. I know my limitations. I could get him confident, but could I put lots of OB on him and maintain that confidence? I don't know and don't want to find out. Interesting topic though <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It's pretty common to have different names for the same thing in dog training. That's why Ed is so carfeul to define everything.

The last reference book I have been studying, which has a very objective viewpoint describes "immersion therapy" and "desensitization" both as "flooding". "Immersion therapy" describing the more aversive, whereas "desensitization" describing the more graduall.

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I could get him confident, but could I put lots of OB on him and maintain that confidence? I don't know and don't want to find out.

Now I see what you're saying better. I use OB to build confidence and use "flooding" or "desensitization" as a distraction phase. Can't tell you if it's right or wrong, but it has worked for me.

P.S. I should add that I use these terms interchangably so older posts make sense.

Thanks for explaining flooding!! You all have a lot more experience than me!

I did ask because I wanted a better look at your training and dog handling. Your response to this question really did give me a better perspective of where each of you was coming from. Anne I think you have a wonderful gift, that you realized very young in life. Good for you!!

I guess having two pups so young and getting them so close together could be why I’m feeling frustrated. Because I’m learning as I’m trying to teach them. Learning about and understanding a high drive dog and a shy dog has been interesting. But maybe I bit off more than I could chew. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> My intentions were to provide Dakota with another outlet for her energy drive. I really felt it was the best thing for her. But perhaps there was a flaw in my choice of what we really needed. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> People did advise me against it, but I spent more time with her than anyone and felt it was the best thing for her, which it is. It’s just figuring it all out with both of them that I’m having trouble with.

I don’t know what to do with them when they are together with me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I do train them together, take walks with them, and play outside with them. But anything else with them together makes things crazy. I can’t have any toys out in the house because it becomes moaning matches and tumbling around (not in a aggressive way, it doesn’t get ugly) but I don’t allow it so when they start acting up I settle them down or take them outside. They also try to chase each other around furniture or run through the house. Greeting guests at our home is also a big problem for me to get a handle on. Even leashed, I can’t hold them (they are too strong for me) from getting in the face of my guest. And the list can go on. But as I originally posted I wasn’t getting the respect I should have, and this is why I don’t believe they see me as their leader.

I have gotten advice very early on that I should work with them separately, which I do. But with everyday stuff they should be with me together. But I did try separating my time between the 2 for just over a week and I wasn’t comfortable with it. I felt bad for the other being left alone. But if I’m getting over-whelmed by the both of them rough-housing, when I place them out side to let it out, I feel that isn’t helping because I’m not spending the time with them I want to or should be.

Barbra I believe you mentioned I should start with the ground work and Anne you suggested the OB DVD. And Kristine you suggested playing the part. All of you have suggested positive motivation, and the right kind of correction, as well as knowing when to correct, and the different levels of corrections, to name a few. Also additional suggestions were made on my shy dog, such as the Competition Heeling DVD and change of diet, as well as considering medication, and also desensitizing him. This is over-whelming!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> How do I incorporate all this into a schedule that is already pulling me at both ends? I have always been open to new ideas and trying something new, but now I think I got too much different stuff in my head and I don’t know how to break it all down. I’m second guessing again, because I’m trying to take out the wrongs. I like to think that my interaction with my dogs has been effective. And in some ways I can see that it has. I just don’t want to screw them up. Which DVD should I purchase first? Should I start the ground work from the very beginning as if I just got them or should I give them a bit more leeway?

What I have been doing is keeping them leashed at all times in the house and this has been great, when it’s one. But with both at the same time I’m still having a lot of the same struggles. I know they feed off each other, they get excited or playful and I don’t want to bring them down. I want them to be dogs, just not so unruly when they are together inside. This really gets to me and nothing I have done up to this point has helped.

Thanks again for sticking it out with me and I’m sorry if you feel a need to repeat yourself. I’m thinking I need to go back to separating them more, and this isn’t anything I’m trilled about. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Anne, what book are you studying now? The new Lindsay one?

Angie, you have to get tough, there's not if's and's or but's. The dogs are taking advantage of you because they can, and you are overwhelmed. You need to start at the beginning and retrain them. Maybe start with Ed's Basic OB video and the groundwork? Until then, you need to take on the role of the drill sargeant with the dogs. It's not a flattering role, but it's an effective one <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I don't ever take two dogs out together. It's just not safe. There are so many what if's that could happen. I used to feel bad about it because there was a time when I always took all the dogs out together. You'll get used to it and so will they. They'll also appreciate the one on one attention they will get. Your fearful dog needs that time with you so that you can help him overcome his fears. He won't be paying attention to you while the other dog is with you and you won't be focusing your full attention on him, and his issues won't be addressed. I was lucky that when I brought my fearful dog home I only had an elderly golden retriever.

While you're out with one of the dogs, work on OB, after you finish, go home, get your other dog, go for a walk, work on OB. Also while you're out with your fearful dog, try to bring him around things that he fears. I wouldn't force him into anything unless Anne gives you detailed instructions on that, but gradually introduce things to him. Research desensitization methods. Later in the day, work both dogs in OB in the back yard which will help train with a little bit of distraction.

Regarding bothering guests; you can either make them sit/stay and correct them for disobeying (prong for Dakota, harsh tone of voice and maybe a flat collar correction for the other, demand a sit/stay and be prepared to enforce it), or, let them calmly greet guests, if they get intrusive, correct for that, or put them outside, let the guests settle in, then let the dogs in when they are seated. Whatever you choose, you have to teach them what you expect of them and be consistent. After they become reliable maybe you can deviate from consistentcy. Example, I demand proper behavior in the house. I'm relatively new to sharing my living space with dogs, so I don't want them filthing the place up. On occasion, now that they know the rules, I'll let them run wild and play fetch or whatever in the house. It's on a when I say so basis. They know that and respect it because I taught them that. But not until they obeyed the rules reliably.

If they are running wild in the house, tell them NO in a loud firm voice. Bring them thru OB commands every time they start going on a rampage and tell them NO consistently. I'd take advantage of that prong collar with Dakota if necessary. I didn't have any tools like that when I was training the dogs for proper conduct. Time outs help, down stays alone. It also practices OB. Use the NILIF system. It's a must.

And Angie, don't feel bad. I was kind of where you're at, but I immediately got the 'I'm not about to have some common mangey mongrels walking all over me and running my house or me no matter how much I like them', and put a fast end to it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You'll get where you want to be don't worry. Just don't think you bit off more then you can chew. Think you'll be successful and you will be. There can't ever be a question in your mind if you can do it or not, it has to be an absolute that you can.

After you receive the new video's, forget everything I said and do what they say. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I understand how this can all be overwhelming stuff. Probably why what I say doesn't really come down to a particular thing--for me some of it is second instinct so I never have to think about them, but for the rest it all comes down to educating myself until all the tiny things stick to my head, and then deciding what's best for the dogs at the particular moment and what I hope to accomplish with that. It's not particularly hard if you don't think about it too much. You don't have to follow anything thoroughly, you have to look at yourself and apply what's best for you.

I really feel there's no way around this. It IS a lot of work. You have two very energetic dogs, there's no 'shortcut', no magic DVD that will help you out. Seperate them. Bring one out at a time, let them have 'one on one' interaction with you. (I have three dogs and I take them all out on seperate walks, each walk geared to the particular dog in question.) When they're nice and rested, let them be together and correct anything you don't want to see happening (I personally let them roughouse in the living room, I don't mind dog fur on the couch or in my food). Instead of trying to 'control them', so to speak, try to guide them...it's kinda like doing pottery, when you think about it too much and get frustrated and start pushing into the clay you end up with a funky piece and maybe a lump of dough on your forehead. But when you just keep the rules in mind, without worrying about them, and let your hands do the movement, you end up with a noticeable cup.

So you know, just take a step back, relax, let your dogs tell you what you have to do--it'll all come to you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hi Angie,
First of all I am not a trainer and can only give you my own experiences. I have 2 dogs that were litter mates and are now coming up to 4 years old and have NEVER EVER been apart. They sleep together, feed together, everything together since the day that they were born and I thought they were very well behaved and basic trained dogs. What do I go and do? Buy another pup and I've had terrible problems, they both had a go at my new pup individually. Then started growling and being aggressive with each other. Then I found Ed's site and it was 'Oh my god, what've I done?' <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> These were 2 lovely dogs brought up with small children who had never shown any aggression and now they were like wild dogs! Talk about 'pack instincts'.
I immediately joined this forum and am now under the guidance of Anne. Connie Sutherland is great too!
They have their own crates now, eat in their own crates, I walk them separately and have started OB and groundwork completely from the beginning. Apart from one dog whining when I'm out with the other, they have transformed in less than a week. Their OB is second to non compared to when they were together.
Believe me, my heart strings were tugged and tugged at for the first few days and sometimes I thought is this worth it? I have a house large enough for them to be together and the pup separate but I thought 'no, this is not what I want as an outcome'.
I can honestly tell you it's the best thing I've done and you start to see the dogs own individual temperament and character, that you'd never seen before. It's like you've freed them from a cloud hanging over them. They can finally be 'just' themselves.
I hope this helps in some way. You'll get there, have faith in yourself.
Regards <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Happy New Year Everyone!!

Thank you very much for your kindness and support! Each one of you has given me so much to work with. I ordered the OB DVD from this site the other day and I hope that this DVD will provide me with a better look at what you have all told me already. Learning something new is always interesting, it’s the time needed to become comfortable with it that makes it effective.

I do have to remember that my mental attitude is everything in handling my dogs, thank you Barbra, Kristine, Anne, and Lisa for pointing that out. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It’s a new year and a new beginning! I do have a very strong desire to live life with my dogs the best that it can be, and I can’t let a bad day get to me. Taking a step or 2 back isn’t that big of a deal, Lord knows I have done it quite a few times already. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I am getting my thoughts together of what is working with them. I am reinforcing the NILIF method, cracking down on my weak spots. I am also going to work out a schedule that is more consistent with time and exercise for each of them and although I will likely have them separated more often, I will still let them have a short period of time together in the morning, after being quiet and good in their crates all night they deserve this pleasure, I feel they earned it and they really do enjoy each other.

I am hoping this DVD fine-tunes my training. Visually seeing what I need to do and hopefully catch were my errors are. The behavior issues are the most challenging, because that really is going to take some serious “cracking the whip,” and focus on my part to catch it as early as possible. I don’t let the dogs out of my sight, this is already common practice for me and I can’t assume just because they are in my sights they are going to behave. I have been thinking more about setting up situations, which I do when it comes to my cats, but I don’t do this with anything else. Just something I’m considering.

Wish us luck!!

Thanks again for your time and effort in helping us! It is deeply appreciated! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Angie

Good for you Angie!
You sound so much more positive and confident in your last post! I agree with you that they should have a little time together and one day I'm hoping all 3 of mine will be able to have a run about and play together. I just need to make sure first that they ALL know who's the boss <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I'll get there (I'm determined to) and so will you.
Here's to 2006!