Quote:

Originally posted by VanCamp Robert:

I think a dog will bark while in prey drive alone. Here is why I think that. There are times when there is no motivation present other than prey drive. There is no stress, there is no social aspect, and the dog is just frustrated because he can't reach the prey. Barking at that point is being motivated by the dogs prey drive alone.


I also think a dog will bark while in a lot of other drives and by the tone of the bark and the body language of the dog you can take a pretty good guess what drive the dog is working in. Barking or whatever.

I can agree with that. But the barking is not motivated by the drive it is motivated by the stress put on that drive I think.


The point I wanted everyone to consider is this: Does Prey lock = silence.

I think it does if you count the dog must commit 100% to the action of catching something. That is why I asked about moment just before the bite.

We all should accept the dog has more then one drive working be it taking down a bad guy, biting the sleeve, finding, catching and killing lunch.


Funny thing is you can see this silence in puppies with high prey drive and we intentional put his drive in conflict to get him to bark so we can teach him the bark makes prey move. If act all we ever did war release the dog to a bite from puppy on ward most dogs would never make a peep. The would lower their head and focus the eyes and target the place they are most comfortable. (Translate: Where they think they can be least likely injured or have learned was not injured in the past.)

I talked about carry over drives that effect the dog in many ways and this is temperament based most of the time.

A dog in pure prey is giving himself the best chance at catching whatever it is he wants through focus. That focus makes him silent just before the bite. He is defenseless as he strikes at all points but the point of teeth contact. The fully committed dog is silent and focused on the task.

Hounds bay when trailing because they want to keep the vermin moving thus sending scent out. Most hounds don't hunt alone and so there is a social call for the others to follow. But all of that is learned with some help in genetics. A common way to train a puppy and young adult to trail with hounds is to simply let him run with an experienced pair of adults. The older dogs often out run the young adult and never let him lead. (You've got to have order after all)

Soon the younger dog learns to scent them should already know the scent of the game before he is on his fist run. The funny thing is the dogs don't know they want to tree the coon as their job. In fact most if they can catch it will kill it. The coon trees because it is safe. The bark is to keep the pack together and to keep the prey moving (in and out of the tree) so the fear scent is strong from the animal and the dog gets off on that being the kind of creature he is. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Still, when he attacks full throttle he is silent for that split second then defense kicks in and the fight drive is on. The dog is vocal at that point because he is fighting not only for lunch but he doesn't want lunch to hurt him so he has some fear.

Now take the same dog after a mouse and he may not growl at all because the strike kills the mouse in one swoop and if he knows he has no fear of being hurt.

Any vocalization is the dog using more then just prey and so there is conflict of drives or stress on that drive I think. It doesn't mean it is a bad dog or even the dog is fearful to the point of threshold although it is closer then no sign of stress naturally. It just means the dog has some worries about the situation but is willing to fight on because giving up in the fight means they dog might be forced to submit and that means he is saying ok....kill me.

That is way you must be very carful not to put so much defense on the young dog. If he shuts down he might learn that is an option under stress or be fearful of the situations would have faced more confidently later.

It was not long ago we had a dog that was possessive and dominate. He growled on the sleeve and I thought hmm full bites no hackles no hesitation on the strike and yet after a few seconds growled like mad.

It turns out he was mad...Pi$$ed. He wanted the sleeve and was pissed the helper didn't cough it up be slipping his reward. Still this is drive conflict in my mind because after getting the bite he had internal issues that when beyond the bite itself. His desire for the sleeve was externalized by growling. The dog actually thought his growling got him the sleeve after the bite. This was a learned behavior because at some point he growled and was rewarded for it.

 Quote:

JL: Prejudices have nothing to do with this conversation. It's more disapointing that you come here in your first post and talk down to people who you don't know a thing about. Perhaps if you added your own views on the subject rather than telling us what you think we should do that might be more interesting.

Well I believe I did talk about the prey drive barking issue but I guess you didn't read that. So how about this: If a dog is confident he can overpower his prey/the decoy, why should he growl or shake the sleeve, his crushing grip should be enough?

Like Dennis just said:

 Quote:

Any vocalization is the dog using more then just prey and so there is conflict of drives or stress on that drive I think. It doesn't mean it is a bad dog or even the dog is fearful to the point of threshold although it is closer then no sign of stress naturally. It just means the dog has some worries about the situation but is willing to fight on because giving up in the fight means they dog might be forced to submit and that means he is saying ok....kill me

As far as what comprises prey drive, prey drive is how a dog gets food, no?

 Quote:

JL:Sorry to say, I and I'm sure many others do not see the "kill" as a normal part of prey drive. I see perhaps the act of grasping, but the final level needed for a "kill" in nature or the combat needed to put down a combative foe is not in prey.

If killing wasn't part of the prey drive how would a wild dog survive? Or is that the "kill drive"!!?

 Quote:

VanCamp: I think a dog will bark while in prey drive alone. Here is why I think that. There are times when there is no motivation present other than prey drive. There is no stress, there is no social aspect, and the dog is just frustrated because he can't reach the prey. Barking at that point is being motivated by the dogs prey drive alone.

Please give me an example, I just don't believe this can happen. And surely frustrated = stress.

Louise

So now you are saying you can put stress on a drive, Dennis?


ok


This goes right back to the frustration issue. There has to be a drive to be frustrated before there can be an action that results from the frustration. In this case barking, even as a product of frustration (inability to reach prey) still has to be motivated by the dog's drive. The dog can't reach success by running or gripping, so he has to switch gears to something that WILL bring success (barking). In that case the dog is still trying to reach the prey, still striving to satisfy the prey drive.


If you don't think that it is only prey drive that motivates a dog, that is fine. But you have to see that frustration isn't the motivation. . .the drive is.

Frustration is how WE manipulate a dog to bark, but that isn't what motivates the dog to bark. The base drive is still what is motivating the dog's actions.

Originally posted by VanCamp Robert:

Frustration is how WE manipulate a dog to bark, but that isn't what motivates the dog to bark. The base drive is still what is motivating the dog's actions. Yep, I agree. I teach my pups to bark on command for food or a toy. Guess what, i have to backtie them or put them behind a gate to add the frustration otherwise they jump and leap and no bark.

If the dog had no food or prey drive, this would not work, the drive MUST be present in the first place.

SteveCobb wrote: I also believe that dogs that are vocal on the bite have a problem.

LC: Making such blanket statements pretty much guarantees that you are going to be wrong. And yes, that's a blanket statement. *MOST* dogs that bark on the bite have a problem but certainly not *all* of them.

SteveCobb wrote: I have always said the first sign of insecurity is growling on the bite. If you push the issue and do not change your training program around to fit this individual dog, the dog will start to bark on the bite. I am refering to good dogs.

LC: *Often* this is the case. But once in a while it's not. As with reading any other aspect of dog behavior you have to look at the entire dog. If his ears are down and back, if his hackles are up and if his tail is tucked up against his belly, then yes, he has a problem. But if none of these behaviors are present then he's just being mouthy. Many dogs talk all the time.

SteveCobb wrote: I personally would have my little SchH dog or a well rounded KNPV dog over a PSD any day. I have trained with too many cops and 96% of them can not handle or train dogs. This is not a stab at anyone. If I offended anyone then I am sorry.

LC: First you slap most of the police officers in the country and then you say you're sorry if you offended anyone! Sorry, this just doesn't fly. I'm pretty darn sure that I've trained with more police officers than you and while some of them shouldn't be allowed to own a goldfish, the overwhelming majority of them do a good job. Many of them are excellent. As far as them not being able to "train dogs" that's not their job. Look at their job title again, "dog *handler*" not "dog trainer."

SteveCobb wrote: Show me a dog that is vocal on the grip and I will show you a dog that will not be biting by the third round.

LC: How many dogs do you need to be shown before you stop making this general statement and admit that you're wrong? According to this statement it should only take one.

SteveCobb wrote: From what I have seen of police service dogs in the U.S., I would not own one.

LC: Is this another statement made with no intent to offend anyone? Sorry, not buying it. Again, I'm pretty sure that I've seen more PSD's in this country and others as well. While there are some that wouldn't guard their own food bowl, most of them are pretty good and some are quite excellent.

SteveCobb wrote: If they do ever send one for a live bite, it is usually when the bad guy is running away (escape) and the dog usually ends up biting them on the ass.

LC: I don't know the source of your information but it's wrong. The overwhelming majority of bites happen either during searches, when the suspect is hiding, or during handler protection, when the crook attacks the officer. In neither circumstance is the suspect fleeing.

SteveCobb wrote: Most cops get defensive over this and say that their dogs will hang in there for a real fight...that is what they train for. All that screaming, yelling, thrashing that your helper does in training does nothing more than get your average dog geeked up.

LC: If this is typical of the PSD training that you've seen then you're seeing basic training. The yelling, thrashing and screaming isn't done in advanced training.

Louise Jollyman wrote: Grow up guys, just because a dog is insecure or shows fear does not mean he can't do his job. A good helper can improve your dogs confidence so that he gets respectable scores on the field. If he is a police dog and always goes after the bad guy and apprehends him successfully, then no issue.

LC: Although there are quite a few PSD's on the street who work in defense, I'd just as soon that they'd find another job. A dog that's insecure may work his entire career and never have a problem. But tomorrow he may encounter an opponent that he knows that he can't beat. He may then decide that the best way to survive is to take off, leaving his hander in the alley with the 800 pound gorilla. You can make such a dog look good with good training, but you can't change his basic nature, he's afraid and always will be when he thinks he's outclassed.

Randall Hoadley wrote: The problem is that we believe when a dog is in 100% natural prey he does not bark.

LC: I don't know who the "we" is in this sentence, but it sure doesn't include me. Most of the time it's true. But your statement is an absolute and there's no such thing in training dogs.

Randall Hoadley wrote: And I already no this is not 100% of the dogs 100% of the time.

LC: This is the first time that you've admitted that your statements don't cover all dogs all of the time. Perhaps we're making some progress.

Randall, you are saying that dogs do not bark in prey drive alone. There is drive interaction going on the second that the dog starts barking? Is that safe to say? You believe that there is some social drive (pack drive) or some defense drive that spurs the dog to bark. A dog will not bark while only in prey drive? A dog will only bark when there is some drive interaction?

VanCamp, with this statement, I believe you made it to the kitchen but your just not cooking yet.

I think a dog will bark while in prey drive alone. Here is why I think that. There are times when there is no motivation present other than prey drive. There is no stress, there is no social aspect, and the dog is just frustrated because he can't reach the prey. Barking at that point is being motivated by the dogs prey drive alone.

You say there is not stress and no social aspect...he is just frustrated because he cannot reach his prey. However, if there is frustration, then there has to be something holding the dog back from his wants, unless it is his defense drive holding him back. Oh man, that would be ugly.

Several others have mentioned that running, jumping, barking, etc...is all learned. All of this is natural for a dog to do, just watch a bunch of puppies for a few days. They all sit, down,stand, walk, run, jump, chase, eat, crap and piss...none of this was taught...it might have taken some time to develop but it all happened in good time. Someone mentioned that they have seen dogs in crates that when let out couldn't walk. This is an exception to the rule. I also believe what you see in a dog in an uncontrolled situation is 90%genetics, 10%training.

Steve Cobb

 Quote:

Originally posted by VanCamp Robert:
So now you are saying you can put stress on a drive, Dennis?


ok


This goes right back to the frustration issue. There has to be a drive to be frustrated before there can be an action that results from the frustration.

In that case the dog is still trying to reach the prey, still striving to satisfy the prey drive.


But you have to see that frustration isn't the motivation. . .the drive is.

Frustration is how WE manipulate a dog to bark, but that isn't what motivates the dog to bark. The base drive is still what is motivating the dog's actions.

I agree and even said prey drive is the fuel that gets the dog there.

Even the HIGHEST most pure form of prey. When you talk about prey drive level of prey over rides the other drives almost completely so the dog can make the required catch.

When someone posted the dog is silent in prey I think they meant at this level. At least it is how I took it. The dog is calm and focused even if that window of clarity is only a split second it still happens.

This is prey at its highest 100 score form. At some point like "threshold" one drive completely dominates the other drives and then switches the gears it need to finish the job. Maybe a mouse needs less defense then a bear so less defense and more prey remain after the catch. Maybe this explain why wolves will toss small game around even though they are hungry.

Natural selection play a part in behavior and if you were to ask me my best guess about that behavior I would say the game of toss the rabbit is natures way of dividing the booty...with others...but that another topic.

There seems to be some confusion and I don't think anyone is saying prey drive is not motivating the behavior. What some are saying is that other signs of other drives show up and vocalization is a sign of frustration that can be interrupted as a weakening of that drive. It doesn't mean the drive is wiped out in anyway. So it continues to fuel the action.

The dogs prey drive is just dampened/stressed in some way and checked against the dogs confidence level. (defense)

100% defensive drive is absolute confidence the dog can defend himself. No dog is 100% confident in every situation so it is also checked by and against other drives..prey and avoidance.

It is pretty interesting really...

 Quote:

Originally posted by SteveCobb:
I also believe what you see in a dog in an uncontrolled situation is 90%genetics, 10%training.

Steve Cobb

I agree Steve, because a dog unless I agree Steve, because a dog unless conditioned/trained to a situation will revert back to his nature.

That is like I have always said. We can modify a dog's behavior but we can't change a dog's temperment. This doesn't mean I or others can't enhance the dog's drives and add the phrase Drive Resiliance to our vocabulary. I find the idea very useful. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

This topic is becomming more and more useless. It is beyond moot because there isn't a single TRAINED dog functioning in it's natural state. So you can talk about what an untraind dog "would" do, but it doesn't make any difference because we aren't talking about untrained dogs.

To complicate the matter different breeds have been bred to do different things on the bite. A GSD will tend to bite and hold, that is what they were bred to do for SchH. A Giant, a breed that hasn't been used as much for SchH, will tend to grab and pull down and back. Other breeds do other things in relation to the breeding behind them. The result is that to evaluate a Giant based on typical behavior of the GSD just doesn't work. I keep seeing comments that are fairly true for a GSD being applied to all dogs, doesn't work.

As for prey lock=silence, not in the dogs I have seen. The dogs I have seen that are "prey" locked are extreamly noisy. It usually starts the second they are unloaded from the car, and keeps going to the second they leave. The reason is that they have been taught over a long period of time to bark to get their prey so they bark constantly. The best example I can think of is a Mal in the begining of training. They are being worked in prey and being taught to B&H so they bark to get what they want.

How hard is this?