Quote: geoff empey

It's all easy for others to give out advice and look at everything in hindsight. But not being in the same shoes as Mallory or never having to had to live with a dog like that. How could that be?

I feel sorry for the dog, Mallory, and the whole situation. But the reality of it is there. Trying to rehabilitate rescues is not a cakewalk, sometimes you have to make unsavory decisions sorry to say.

Geoff, I understand where you coming from...and I appreciate what you're saying about Mallory's good intentions and I don't dispute that. I'm not trying to "nail her to the cross" and I didn't think Nora was, either.

But no, I have never been in that situation--I have rescued and fostered dogs, yes...but not that many at one time when I had so little time to offer. Better to save 3 then barely stay above water with 10, IMO.

It is hard for most people to own up to the fact that they may have bitten off more then they can chew. There are no winners in this debate. Again, the point isn't to attack Mallory. The joke she made about the pooping in the car may have put some people off (I'm one of them) but perhaps she's just a "laughs at funerals" kind of person.

I'm not saying that every aggressive dog can be rehabilitated. I know that a lot of people are thinking of times when they were in similar situations, and I understand that. Maybe this pup was beyond saving. But it's just impossible to say that THIS pup was beyond saving, given the specific circumstances, IMO.

I hope Mallory continues to follow her heart in saving animals in need. But she's just one person and she has her limits. If you have responsibilities beyond your limitations and take on more than your resources will allow then things will suffer.

But by telling her she did everything right, how can this be avoided in the future? Yes, the odds were stacked against her...but good intentions or not-- she contributed to those odds.

An aggressive dog has to be contained properly.

10 dogs is too much.

Joking about scared puppies being put to sleep is not funny to many people.

I hope that these are (very sad) lessons learned, for all of us.

 Quote: geoff empey

But for the people who have never been in the same situation. ( I have btw) Where they were dealing with a dog that consistently puts you and others in grievious danger even with the best of help and intentions, something has to give.

Geoff, therein lies the problem for some. From what I understand there has been a parade of red flags, danger signs and warnings for Mallory all along yet she contained the dog behind a "baby gate". Even if it was for one time, it was apparently one time too many and now the dog is paying the price for the owners poor lack of judgment, carelessness, whatever you want to call it.

To try to give an analogy, suppose a parent put a toddler behind a baby gate but near a pool. Even though the toddler had been showing signs of being a climber, the parent left the toddler unattended momentarily. The toddler climbs out and falls into the pool and is hurt or drowns. There are some people in this world who would not fault the parent, those that might say, "You did your best." Others would feel quite differently and find it hard to understand how and why she ignored the warning signs.

Mallory, you may have had nothing but good intentions (initial rescue of the pup) but at the end of the day, that is never enough. I don't think anyone is doing you a favor (or any future dogs that may come into your home), by telling you not to be too hard on yourself.

Again, I'm not trying to kick you when you're down. I'm looking at this from a point of view similar to what ALL of us experience at one time or another - I could have done better and this is a lesson (in dog ownership) I will not soon forget.

Amber, the difference with Jenni is she did something about it. Got room for another dog? The dog still has 7 days left.

Edited by Al Curbow (04/01/2008 09:04 AM)
Edit reason: added info

 Quote: Al Curbow

Amber, the difference with Jenni is she did something about it. Got room for another dog? The dog still has 7 days left.

No, sorry. I don't have the time or resources to commit to a dog that I can't follow through on, and I try not to take on more than I can handle. That's kind of my point. Jenni did, and I think what she did was great.

And anyway, I assumed this dog was already gone and pts at the vets. Is that not the case? And shelters don't offer for adoption dogs that have been turned over for aggression issues anyway, at least where I live.

Edited by Amber Morgan (04/01/2008 09:16 AM)
Edit reason: added

No, the dog is in animal controls custody, didn't you read Mallorys post?

The bottom line is i feel bad for the dog and people that are collectors don't see that they're collectors and get waaaay to far over their head. Sad...........

Judy, Amber thanks for understanding where I was coming from. Having lived through a rotten situation like that myself where I had to make a life or death decision for an animal in its prime that I considered my best friend is not a trivial thing by any means.

It is all to easy to judge someone else's actions or words especially on the internet.

I know we talk about red flags and such I agree. But again when can you pull the plug when you are in too deep? From what I remember when Mallory rescued the pups in the first place, there was nothing but accolades, good cheer and much back slapping all around. Again I do not know all the history since she rescued those pups.

She surrendered the dog to animal control they will have the dog in quarantine 10 days and then they will evaluate if the dog is adoptable, it is still not a death sentence.

I know that there is many lessons to be learned here for everyone, Mallory may have made some mistakes and/or took on more than she could chew. But it still doesn't sway in my mind that she is doing the right thing (giving up the dog) given her circumstances.

 Quote: Mallory Kwiatkowski

So i just have to turn her over to animal control

Yes, I had forgotten this part. Mea culpa. But I thought the 10 day quarantine for a dog who bites was only for dogs that were still wanted by their owners. Otherwise, I thought they were just euthanized and tested. I guess it doesn't matter, it's probably off topic.

 Quote: Al Curbow

The bottom line is i feel bad for the dog and people that are collectors don't see that they're collectors and get waaaay to far over their head. Sad...........

I agree. It is sad, and again, I don't think there are any winners here. I don't think Mallory had any ill-intent towards this pup at all. My first post was more strongly worded because I was upset by the joke she posted about the drive to put Brook to sleep, but I have remembered how hard easy it can be to misinterpret someone over an internet post. And I hope that she notices how many people posted that they applaud her for trying to save the pup in the first place.

I'm with Geoff and Mary Roach.

Yes Mallory did her best and maybe it wasn't good enough. She can plainly see that she can't handle this dog, it has some pretty big problems for such a young thing and she has other dogs and animals she's responsible for. So what exactly is she supposed to do here. She doesn't have the knowledge, tools or resources to deal with a "red zone" pit bull.

No rescue or shelter that I know of will take in or adopt out a dog with known aggression issues, especially one that bites a human. And there happens to be a shortage of knowledgeable, experienced homes with no other pets willing to take on an aggressive dog with a history of abuse and trauma. There are too many dogs like Brook, and not enough homes to take them.

Some of you may not realize how hard it is to find an appropriate home for a dog. I am trying right now to find a home for a dog that is "less than perfect" and he's not even aggressive - just a little skittish. Let me tell you it is very difficult and time consuming and I can't even imagine trying to find a good home for a dog that repeatedly bit and attacked other dogs and its owner. People want a nice, friendly, easy to take care of dog and very very few people have the experience and knowledge necessary to handle a large, dominant, aggressive dog.

I don't see any of you stepping up either.

So... there are only two other options. Mallory keeps the dog - and many people have already pointed out that she is NOT equipped to deal properly with her - or have the dog humanely euthanized.

Now the way I read Mallory's posts were not that she was joking, I read them as grim jokes trying to make the best of a bad situation. She posted that she is NOT happy about the situation but sees no other choice. She stated that having Brook euthanized was going to be very hard for her. Some of you seem to think she is callous but, I think it has hit her hard and I know she feels she failed the dog. I know I would.

I still think it was the best choice in the situation. At least Mallory tried. She could have done what most people would have done and called animal control to come get the pups and they would have been put down 3 months ago.

Edited by Angela Burrell (04/01/2008 09:48 AM)
Edit reason: Hey Mary! I lost a star too! Funny how people will do that just cause they dont agree with you.

Angela,

No one has blatantly said she was wrong here, just wondering what else could have been done, and everyone has supported her for saving those pups and giving them a good home.

I feel for her, I really do, but there may have been steps that were missed. Maybe not.

Having that many dogs and not a lot of time is bound to create issues that 1. may have never started with proper training and guidance OR 2. may have been fixable with proper training and guidance.

I have 6 dogs and there is a constant comment in my house about my dogs coming first. Not necessarily true ALL the time, but yes, I do put my dogs at the top of my list in order for them to receive the training and care that they need. I cannot sit and say, "Oh, I'll work on it tomorrow."

Tired, sick, injured or whatever (me, not the dogs), my dogs get something everyday. Whether it be 10 minutes or 2 hours, each dog gets what they need.

Aggression is not allowed here, and that takes precedence with any dog that I have or that comes in for training.
Some are fixable and some are manageable, big difference in those two words.

I do know how hard it is to place a dog and if I could have a PB on my property, I would gladly step up. However, hubby is of the "stereotype" mindset and nothing will change that. Too many horror stories and no interaction with a stable, friendly PB which, from having them when I was young, would be the norm for that breed.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and we all know that.

If I was a mod, I would lock this thread, as it has become an argument and no longer is conducive to dog training, in fact, I am not sure it ever was about training since the OP never really asked for advice in this thread on what to do.

"It is what it is."



By far, one of the best quotes there is.

I apologize for offending anyone, but we are all different, all have opinions and we voice them.

Some may be wrong, some may be right and some may be on the fence, and this issue is a hot one. No matter what dog it happens to. What some pet owners do not understand how to fix, some trainers do.

To those who want some other forum member to step up and rescue the pup I have only this to say - this is Mallory's pup, the one SHE made a commitment to. SHE should go back and get the pup and try to rehome. The dog is HER responsibility. There wasn't any effort to rehome and so no one knows if it was possible or not. To just say it's hard to rehome without making the effort is not good enough.

And yes, I HAVE been in that situation. I have been bit several times by an adult dog and numerous times by an intense determined puppy. So according to many who posted their opinion about how appropriate it was to put a puppy of FIVE months to sleep for aggression, my dog Lear would have had that death sentence a long time ago. We worked through it. I had much to learn and I learned it. Never did it cross my mind to put him down.

And to accuse a puppy of 5 or 6 months of being aggressive is inappropriate and just plain wrong, much less accuse that same puppy of being aggressive at 2 or 3 months, which some posters did.

I've posted this before and will say it again. PLEASE be careful how you throw the word aggression around. It does not always apply. People hear the word aggressive and immediately think they know what it means. People also use the word aggressive to describe their PUPPIES or dogs without knowing what the word means either. I don't think most people have ever seen an aggressive dog.