I think Beth did a great job offering a less biased side of the whole show vs working dog arena, and the politics that run behind it.

I love the German showlines. I own one, and I will always have one in my life till the day I die.

I am also beginning to deeply appreciate the working lines for their purpose. Will I own one? I am considering, when I have more experience to allow for him to achieve his potential.

But really, there is no such thing as a bad GS. They are all wonderful in their own way, and play their role very well in the kind of environment they are meant for ... be it service, working or just a loving companion.

While I can see that the protection work is very lax, I can't help but wonder why don't the handlers work harder with their dogs.

I admit I was feeling a little beaten down for owning a German showline from all the criticisms. But I do love my little Janka-bean.

Just my humble two cents' as well.

Regards,
Rei

I will reiterate - I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to see more working lines entered in the fall WDA Sieger Show. If the working line owners believe their dogs can show off better work, then enter the event. The criticisms of the show lines (IMO) will be much more impactful coming from folks who are in the game.

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I will reiterate - I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to see more working lines entered in the fall WDA Sieger Show. If the working line owners believe their dogs can show off better work, then enter the event. The criticisms of the show lines (IMO) will be much more impactful coming from folks who are in the game.

Beth

I understand what you are saying and think that up to a point, well, you have a point.

But because of the video's that were released this year and put on youtube for the general publice there is a little different slant to the criticism then in prior years when you just got a count of the dogs chased off the field by helpers trying to appear to be their best friend.

The main thrust is just to merely enforce the rules that are already in place. A lot of people feel that that was not done, and from the few minutes I watched I have to concur.

Enforce the rules and regulations already in place. And enforce them now. Doesn't seem too unreasonable, does it?

If the rules as written are not being enforced the Judges owe the membership an explanation and probably a resignation.

Very few working line breeders claim that their dogs are beautiful, very few claim to follow the SV standards to breeding.

But,

A LOT of showline breeders use some variant of the marketing phrase "Beatiful dogs that can work" and they charge twice as much as working line breeders by claiming to be an SV Breeder.

Well if you are marketing, and you are claiming that you follow SV standards and that your dogs can work, they you better be willing to back up your claims. And when you can't, and the evidence is all over you tube, don't cry foul.

Just my humble opinion.

I have attended about 8 SV style Sieger Shows in North America (US and Canada). I agree with those who have already said that in general, much of the protection test work is less than stellar.

I would also say to those who are overly critical - let's see YOU out there on the field with your dog. Sieger Show rules do not exclude working lines. I'd love to see more working lines on the field - especially those dogs who have been judged to have high caliber (V) conformation to go with excellent protection work. There are lots of very nice dogs IMO, in this category. Criticizing the US/Canadian based juding after YOUR dog did stellar protection test work, but subsequently ended up with a less than V rating would have MUCH more impact (IMO) than just criticizing the you tube videos.

Having lived for several years "in the belly of the show line beast," I feel comfortable saying that the MEMBERSHIP of the USA and WDA organizations MUST speak out to help stop the easy passing of the weaker dogs. You Tube will help. But we also need people to get involved who are willing to present dogs on the field - not just people who sit on the sidelines criticizing the crap out of the people who ARE putting their dogs on the field.

As long as "hard" judges are excluded, and "easy" judges are invited, this is what we will have. (speaking of German SV judges)

IMO, ALL German Show line dogs don't suck. Rather than sit around and diss the ones who DO suck, maybe we should help promote the ones who ARE decent and might improve the breeding programs that will continue on, regardless. Maybe show line buyers could be encouraged to consider a better point of view if more USA / WDA members entered their working lines in these events.

Arm chair quarter backing with zero action to back it up isn't going to solve this problem. I'm secretly hoping that some folks with solid V rated (or potential for that) working line AND show line (i.e. the mid range V dogs who may be great in the work, and "OK" in the conformation) dog owners will line up in droves to enter the WDA fall Sieger Show. There is a new President in place who is open to listening. I think he has some courage to at least attempt some change, if the membership of the WDA wants that.

On the other hand, if the WDA members prefer to sit in our collective arm chairs and poke fun of you tube videos, then life will carry on as it always has.

I understand the issues here (at Leerburg) with the WDA (aka - the GSDCA / AKC stuff). But the Sieger Shows happen every year under UScA, WDA, also in Canada in NA. And hopefully all venues can be leveraged to make positive differences at appropriate times.

There are several females and males whose "every day" type of work I am familiar with. Anyone looking for a very direct / HONEST opinion about a specific dog is welcome to PM me. I will echo Bob Scott that there are only a limited number I could feel comfortable recommending (for breeding / pups / etc.). But I DO have the benefit of knowing several of these breeders and their dogs/history/reputation for several years.

I will reiterate - I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to see more working lines entered in the fall WDA Sieger Show. If the working line owners believe their dogs can show off better work, then enter the event. The criticisms of the show lines (IMO) will be much more impactful coming from folks who are in the game.

2 cents...

Beth

Are working line breeders trying to breed to a different standard? Or are working line breeders trying to breed to the existing SV standard? If the original SV standard is still the goal for working line breeders, then I HOPE these breeders will engage in the process.

The thing that really rankles is the implicit disrespect in the performance of these dogs and, by extension, the judging.

This exercise is, after all, an entry level exercise. Heel 20 feet, meet the attack out of the blind, do a long bite. All on a pretty friendly helper.

These are all SchH3 dogs being presented as the best of the breed at a national event. This well-known prerequisite should be a no-brainer for the dog and the handler. All the dogs and handlers have had a very long time to train for this exercise. It's not a working/show thing, it's a German Shepherd thing.