Re: Some concerns about Gardasil vaccines
[Re: Michael_Wise ]
#209687 - 09/15/2008 05:08 AM |
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Honey Nut????! YUCK!! I'm a plain old Cherrios fan, myself. I never knew it could become such a heated discussion
Polly, I respect your viewpoint and appreciate the information you provided. I haven't specifically researched this vaccine, as it isn't an issue right now; I don't tend to blindly accept what doctors or current research shows about anything in the medical field. The problem I have with vaccines is that it doesn't make sense to me to inject all this crap into our children, *hoping* it'll protect them like some magic wand. The HPV vaccine doesn't normally enter through the bloodstream, so you're overwhelming the immune system in one sudden injection, rather than allowing the bodies natural defenses to mount an attack.
Maybe this vaccine will prevent HPV infection, and therefore cervical cancer in some girls. But what affect is it having on their immune systems? Especially when you consider all the vaccines children are recommended to get nowadays? Especially when you consider all the other toxins in the environment we're exposed to. I don't think anyone can answer that question. Does it end up weakening someone's immune system enough so that later in life they WILL end up developing something just as bad or worse? Some research suggests all cancers are on the rise. What is the reason behind this?
I must go to work, but this is a great topic!!!!!
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Re: Some concerns about Gardasil vaccines
[Re: Polly Gregor ]
#209690 - 09/15/2008 09:01 AM |
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Maybe they just had a better diet, got a lower dose of virus, etc. Also, biology is inherantly variable. Personally, I would not care to rely on the role that genetics may have to save my kids from smallpox or polio, I far prefer the vaccine.
Polly, I have to agree with you about this. I think in the case of Gardasil, if I had a daughter, I would very seriously consider vaccinating. I think it's a very difficult decision for those who are concerned about potential side effects, but at some point you do need to weigh the potential life-saving benefits for your child.
Out of the 16 million doses given since its inception, there have been about 580 reported serious reactions (including death). These reactions have not definitavely been linked to to Gardasil, but were reported to the CDC as having occurred after receiving the vaccination...
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/vaers/FDA_and_CDC_Statement.htm
About 11,000 women each year contract cervical cancer (in the US). About 1/3 of those will die from it...
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Re: Some concerns about Gardasil vaccines
[Re: Lynne Barrows ]
#209700 - 09/15/2008 10:45 AM |
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Here's an short blurb I wrote on this in April of last year
http://www.beloitchiro.com/Articles/Newsletter%20articles/April%202007%20Newsletter/Gardasil-%20One%20less.htm
Text below in quotes.
Also in August of this year the NYtimes had an article about Gardasil and its fast rise due to the drug maker's push. In 6 months Gardasil went from unknown to application to approval and universal endorsement. This process usually takes 3-5 years for application to approval and 5-10 years of wide use before universal endorsement.
The commercials are motivating, children skipping rope, playing, having fun, and it reminds you that getting your daughter a shot will save her life and make you a hero. I’m sure you’ve seen the commercials for Gardasil. I would get a shot of that myself if it weren’t for a few things that the commercials don’t tell you.
First let’s start with what Gardasil is supposed to do. It’s supposed to protect women from an infection of HPV or Human Papilloma Virus. It doesn’t keep you from getting it or coming in contact with it, it helps to stimulate the body to kill the virus off before it can harm you. This virus is so common that half of adults have HPV at some point in their lives. That’s right-HALF. To make this stat more real, you or your spouse has very likely had HPV at at some point in life.
As you can see it is very common, but the good news is as many as 90% of those infected with this virus clear the infection within 6 months or less. Many people never even know they were exposed in the first place. You see our bodies have a strong and intelligent immune system, and it kills the virus before it can harm you.
Now I have a very simple question, What do we need the vaccine for? A vaccine, like Gardasil, "tricks" the body into thinking its infected, thus creating an immune response to create antibodies to fight an infection of HPV . It doesn’t keep us from being exposed to it, we just have antibodies to fight it. Now half of you reading this will or have had exposure to HPV and your body has or will create the antibodies to destroy the virus naturally and you’ll go on with life. Where exactly is the need?
I suppose you could ask "where’s the harm" and get one anyway, but the truth is we really don’t know what the harm is, or what the benefit is either for that matter. With so many people having HPV at some point it’s not really a suprise that a lot of people with cervical cancer have had an HPV infection. But for the sake of argument we’ll assume HPV is the cause of cervical cancer.
Cervical cancer affects woman who are between the ages of 40 and 55. Usually someone is infected in their late teens or in their 20's with HPV. Then 20+ years later they develop cervical cancer. Basically 20 or more years passes before cancer is the issue. This study that got Gardasil’s approval was done on 9-26 year old’s and lasted a grand total of FOUR years.
How can anyone tell in 4 years how effective a vaccine will be against something that takes 20 or more years to develop?
I will tell you that the reported effectiveness during that trial was astounding. They had 100% effectiveness. 100%, can you believe that, they don’t even advertise that because they know vaccines can never be 100% effective. In fact just 70% or 80% is considered to be an outstanding rate of effectiveness.
Before you get too excited about the 100% effectiveness you should know a few more things about this 4 year study. About 21,000 people were involved, 9-26 year old females and incredibly, 9-15 year old boys were also involved. I’m pretty sure they’ll never have any problems with their cervix. Anyway, of those 21,000 people they found ZERO cases of cervical cancer after 4 years, in both the vaccinated AND the unvaccinated group.
Yes you read that correctly, ZERO cases in the vaccinated group and ZERO cases in the unvaccinated group. Its easy to explain, you wouldn’t expect to find any cases of cervical cancer in the groups they studied anyway. Sure it can happen, but those cases are very, very rare, less than one case per every 100,000 people, they only studied 21 thousand or so.
How anyone, in good concsience, can declare something effective, when the study to prove it is so severely flawed.
Not only is there absolutely zero evidence that this vaccine will put your daughter in the "one less" group 20+ years from now or not, but we haven’t gotten into the side effects. Now most of the side effects reported from this vaccine were relatively mild, but they also have no idea what the Amorphous Aluminum Hydroxyphosphate Sulfate will do to a 9 year old 20 years from now either.
 
There is more than just a casual link between aluminum and a whole host of chronic diseases. Aluminum is implicated in many Cancers itself, yet here it is a part of this new supposed cancer vaccine, does that make sense? Not only does aluminum have ties to cancer, but also chronic neurologic diseases like Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, and Lou Gehrig’s disease all have shown links to aluminum in the body. Again those things take a long time to develop. We have no way of knowing what kinds of effects these shots will have 20 years from now.
Now knowing everything, how the effectiveness was determined, knowing that unvaccinated had the same rate of cancer as the vaccinated group, knowing that almost all of us that come in contact with HPV will rid our bodies of it naturally anyway, and you still want to vaccinate against it, feel free. It’s your choice.
What makes me most angry about this new marketing campaign is that its aimed right at your emotions and your hearts in an attempt to get this vaccine mandated to all young girls. There are still gigantic question marks on its effectiveness and it’s safety. Five years ago, they didn’t have any commercials on tv about smoking, diets low in fruits, or birth control pills increasing your risks of cervical cancer, which they do, but now they have a vaguely studied vaccine that can generate them billions of dollars, you’ll hear about it every time you turn on the TV. Its’ 120 bucks a shot, given three times for all school aged females in America. You do the math. Its on the agenda in over 30 states to Mandate yet another vaccine to children.
We used to get a few shots before going into school, now newborns are bombarded with almost 40 shots, all of these contain metals like aluminum, formaldehyde, some still contain mercury (even though they’re not supposed to make them with it anymore they get exemptions to use it) and other toxic substances. Whether or not all these things have any effect on the autism rates that have jumped from 1 in 10,000 in 1992 to 1 in 152 by 2005, I can’t tell you yes or no.
I can tell you we need to be careful what we’re subjecting our kids to. Mandating another vaccine with questionable validity is not a step in the right direction. Many kids can withstand vaccinations with no apparent or immediate problems, but it only takes one shot for severe brain damage to occur. One shot for encephalopathy, spastic clonus, paraplegia, seizures, retardation, or blindness.
I’m not trying to downplay cervical cancer, or HPV. Cancer of any kind is devastating to everyone involved. I’m all for finding ways to treat and prevent it from ever happening. I’m not for using our children as a mass social experiment to see how it turns out 20 years from now.
Should we really be mandating a vaccine of more than questionable effectiveness and safety?
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Re: Some concerns about Gardasil vaccines
[Re: Eric Read ]
#209702 - 09/15/2008 11:12 AM |
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Eric, thanks for posting that.
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Re: Some concerns about Gardasil vaccines
[Re: Cindy Easton Rhodes ]
#209703 - 09/15/2008 11:25 AM |
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Re: Some concerns about Gardasil vaccines
[Re: Eric Read ]
#209704 - 09/15/2008 11:30 AM |
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Here's a link to the recent NYTimes article commenting on its fast rise from unknown to universal endorsement.
The NYtimes does such a poor job doing fact checking that I'd never quote from them.
No insult towards Eric there, just stating my opinion about a bad newspaper that's going down the drain.
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Re: Some concerns about Gardasil vaccines
[Re: Eric Read ]
#209706 - 09/15/2008 12:05 PM |
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Eric, very well put and a compelling read...
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Re: Some concerns about Gardasil vaccines
[Re: Lynne Barrows ]
#209710 - 09/15/2008 12:36 PM |
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Will,
What about a several reports from CBS ON gardisal?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/07/eveningnews/main4239462.shtml
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/07/08/couricandco/entry4240888.shtml
http://www.munley.com/drugs/gardasil.asp
Blogs from girls who have received vaccinations (Scroll down)
"I'm 17; I got the HPV vaccine yesterday, at the same time as the meningitis vaccine, Hep A, and a TB test; all sitting up. Then they left me alone in the room for around ten minutes. (Yeah, my doctors are *fantastic.*) I fainted; they gave me oxygen for a long while. I have no idea which vaccine caused it, or if it was just the combination of all of them, but I definitely think lying down, and the recommended observational period of 15 minutes, is important, especially for people with low blood pressure.
posted on Friday, July 27, 2007 at 9:43 AM by snail
Tuesday, July 31, 2007 my 13 yr old daughter received her first Gardasil immunization and within two to three minutes collapsed and recovered from the "fainting" by becoming rigid, somewhat post ictal in my opinion. My concern is will there be any long term affects. She is definately not getting Gardasil again and I am informing all of her friends parents not to accept the vaccine. I wish there was a way that I could reach all parents before they submit their child to this dangerous vaccine.
posted on Thursday, August 02, 2007 at 11:54 AM by Patricia Doughty RN "
http://www.kkrasnowwaterman.com/blog/tabid/2962/bid/1691/HPV-Vaccine-fainting-seizures-and-other-side-effects.aspx
(If want to read other people's blogs, click the website above here and scroll down to "Comments."
There are a thousand of comments from parents and their kids.
"It's better to be an optimist who is sometimes wrong than a pessimist who is always right" |
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Re: Some concerns about Gardasil vaccines
[Re: Lindsay Janes ]
#209733 - 09/15/2008 06:38 PM |
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I will try to give a few responses, but I am now reminded of my questioning the use of bandwidth. Many of you are very strongly anti-vaccination, and will not see the value of preventing infectious diseases. I will never change that. I almost don't know where to start.
As it happens I spent today at a cancer vaccine meeting, and mentioned to an oncologist friend that I sometimes try and convince people that vaccinations are desireable. She found this kind of incredible, as a person who treats patients with cervical cancer, and sees them die. She said that some of her patients think they should avoid surgery because it will spread the disease. This is a really dangerous misconception. Some poeple have a visceral distrust of medicine, others of government, I can't change that.
OK, to start, HPV is VERY common. HPV does cause cervical cancer. This is very well established by a large number of scientists. This is not Merck, it is a wide effort. This particular vaccine, like pretty much all other vaccines, is not given to people who are already infected, it is meant for young girls who have not yet been exposed. The trials showed efficacy based on titers of anti-HPV, a very standard method. I hope you don't expect the docs to have challenged the kids with HPV to test the vaccine? Maybe boosters will be needed, my understanding is that it is effective a minimum of 5 years, more data is coming out as the studies mature.
People do clear the virus after a natural infection, and yet they come down with cancer 20 years later. Why is this? Because the virus hides in your cells and can re-emerge. The current vaccine does not prevent that, future vaccines are in development for that, and treatment of active infection.
All vaccines "trick" you into thinking you are infected, by various means. Tetanus vaccine is heat inactivated toxin, not real toxin, for obvious reasons. Vaccinia is not smallpox, for obvious reasons, etc etc. Smallpox has a 30% FATALITY rate, vaccinia is safe, except in rare cases. It cannot be given to HIV+ people, immunocomprimised people, etc, but is safe for the vast majority of us, especially very young poeple. HPV is given intramuscurly, not into blood system, natural HPV infection is via mucous membranes. Vaccinia is given intradermally, smallpox is inhaled. Children get a lot of vaccines, so they are protected from future infection, this is the function of vaccines. Adults need few vaccines. Some vacciens, like the one for smallpox (vaccinia) are no longer given, as they are not needed.
This is all basic immunology. By all means ask the doctors why a vaccine is needed, but unless you take the time to read and understand the scientific literature, take the lay literature with a very large grain of salt, whether it is the NYTimes or a New Age publication.
The first time I had blood drawn, when I was 13, I fainted dead away, and was brought to with smelling salts. I think it is safe to say that this was not a toxic exposure to my own blood, I was probably just scared. A lot of kids hate needles. There is also something called a vaso-vagal response (not sure of spelling) which basically means a rapid drop in blood pressure. I still always lie down for an injection or blood draw, just in case, the sensation of the needle pricking my skin can elicit that response. And, I have delivered three kids with almost no anesthetic, reset a dislocated finger myself, and managed various surgical proceedures without fainting. It is just a quirk, and a common one.
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Re: Some concerns about Gardasil vaccines
[Re: Polly Gregor ]
#209735 - 09/15/2008 07:07 PM |
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... Many of you are very strongly anti-vaccination, and will not see the value of preventing infectious diseases. ...
I think that the varying POVs presented here are vital.
I don't think it's useful to expect that everyone who has a strong position against our own will capitulate and say "Oh, OK. I was wrong and you are right."
Neither "side," if there are indeed sides rather than differing world-views in a discussion like this one, will find it useful to expect that. JMO.
I'm pretty sure that hundreds, perhaps thousands of people are reading this thread and maybe starting to comprehend the complexity of the issues and the need for informed individual decision-making.
It's a great opportunity to hear other POVs.
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