Hello:

Hey David, just for the record and to set things straight you can call me Brandon, afterall that's my name.

What I meant by my comment about the 6 lessons was, when I first started to learn how to train dogs, I was taugh this type of method, very harsh and heavy corrections. It did get results, but something always got compromised usually in the form of me getting some part of my body chomped on.

With all the insight from people who train in other methods like positive motivation, etc - I know at least for myself, the results seem to work much better. But, I do think that different methods have there place, you know like a bag of tricks. You learn how to do something different or better or smarter or faster and you put it in your bag of tricks and someday if you need it there you will have it.

I don't know, I'm not an expert but that's why I'm here, to read and learn and exchange information with people who know more than me (and that's almost everyone). I'm still in the infancy stages of learning because I'm trying to learn how to train smarter (positive methods) not harder (compulsion).

Regards,
Brandon

OK. for the record I make sure every dog knows what it is suppose to do before any corrections are involved and the fastest way in my experience is to teach hand signals along with verbal commands from the very beginning.Dogs are so much more visual. Most coreections come in the form of not braking a sit stay or down stay.If a dog doesnt know what is expected then it becomes a war or a pitty party.The fastest way to get the dog there in my opinion is using hand signals with verbal from the begining,you can always drop the hand signals later.I thought making sure the dog knows what is expected was standard data,anyway back to the original topic teaching a dog to hang out with you on a long line if done correctly works pretty good.

The problem with talking about training techniques is that there are so many variables that can be involved. The thing I am thinking about now when reading this thread is level of correction. As an example the thing I have always done is to use a technique very similar to what is being described here with a couple of changes. The first, and biggest, is the level of correction. It is still based on a correction, but you don't have to use high level corrections to make this work and it can be done with a young pup (I have used it on pups as young as 8 weeks). With young pups I use the "flat" buckle collar for the correction and not even much of a correction at that. Just enough to redirect the attention of the dog. The origional post described a problem, and indication of over correction, with this type of technique: The velcro dog. By lowering the correction level you begin to approximate the technique that Lou Castle and Donn Yarnell describe with low level e-collar corrections.

THe other thing that you have to keep in mind is the purpose of the training. If the dog is going o be a "compition heeling" dog there is a different "picture" of the work that is desired than for a dog that is just going to be a companion. If you are over correcting what you can end up with is a dog that is in fear of the correction, rather than using the correction as a method of communication with the dog. If the point of the correction is to communicate with the dog the level of the correction is lower than if the goal is to "punish" the dog for not doing the desired behavior. One thing I see in most new trainers is that they tend to start corrections high and work down. The yeild is a dog that is so concerned about the correction that they are "afraid" to make a mistake or just shut down all together ("If I don't move, I won't get hurt."). You can use a lower correction and communicate to the dog that they need to pay attention, if the correction isn't strong enough it can be raised until the dog gets the message.

Another consideration is the age of the dog when the training is started. Levels of success with a praticular technique can be dependant on the dogs age. Older dogs will do better with a correction based technique that you will see with a puppy. Corrections can be used to complete basic, companion, obedience with an older dog quickly. I have seen several people that will take a dog that is a little older and put very good basic companion obedience on an adult in 6-8 weeks. The better you are at the corrections the faster it can be done. If you are poor at the corrections it is fairly easy to confuse the dog at the begining of the training. Here is were the over correcting can have the biggest negative effect. You end up not only creating a dog that is afraid of the correction, but because there is no consistancy in the correction timiming the dog can't figure out what you want. This is more likely to cause the dog to shut down. For the dog it doesnt matter what it does it gets a high level of correction, so why do anything? When I was in college we used a similar technique to induce "depression" in rats. Random high level shocks, and eventually they would just sit in a corner and shake.

Much in training is based on belief and skill in the method being used. If you have no confidence in the method, it will be poorly applied and that will mean it won't work. If you do believe in the method, most likely you will be better at it and have better sucess.

Richard I think what you are saying is right on the money.Youve sid it better than I have been able to. I am not talking about heavy or harsh corrections. This is what Ive been saying it is not about pain or punishment it is simply getting the dogs attention and keeping it with motivational technigues.As a dog trainer I can not have dogs looking fearful.I make sure the dogs look happy so clients feel good about it. Word of mouth can be your best friend or your worse enemy....and I am just talking about basic obedience here.I cant afford dogs showing sgns of avoidance and my biggest concern in training is keeping the dog from getting stressed and to get the dog in the zone where it is working and learning efficiantly. If you dont have attention the dogs not learning ,if the dog is stressed the dogs not learning its the trainers responsability to read every dog and know these threshholds and get the most out of the dog and make sure the owners are aware of this and understand and are able to apply this in thier own training.Like I was saying I dont "make" a dog do anything if it doesnt know what I want and personally the best way to make it clear is to train with hand signals and verbal together from the begining.To me it seems to give the dog a clear pitcure what Im wanting and remove the stress.The hand signals can be easily dropped later if you want.Once again I am talking about basic obedience.
Timing and consistency are key and surely everybody can agree on that.You dont want to be training a stressed dog thats not thinking clearly surely everybody can agree on this.We all want the dogs to perform and look happy while doing it,surely we can agree on this.I think you can get there more than one way and achieve all of these things and I am open to all of them and I apply all of them,(as long as it is fair and not cruel)

This is a interesting thread, I've started to gather training techniques and will try to implement them. I've found that the original way I was shown to teach heeling is old-school. Though probably the fastest way to teach a strong/hi drive dog, but could fail or hurt a weak/lo drive dog. I need to do the random circles and turns, instead of the figure 8. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The motivational method can work on any dog, it just takes longer and a more skilled handler. You get happier heeling.

I've tried the hotdog in the hand method (off leash), it works but when the hot dogs run out their interest starts to wane. I like using the ball but not food (it totally distracts the Rottie).

One of the benefits of the complusion method is if they ever start to pull on the lease (say on casual walks), when they feel slack in the leash. They re-group and actually slow down and start heeling, you have to release them to play. The same with the off lease if they start moving away and you say heel they imediately return to the left side. This may be true with the other methods too, but I messed up with the old-school method. So I can only refer to that.

David, I agree Richard could be a writer he is very precise in his definitions.

And David is right (in my case) six visit is about, right. Now the dog onwer has to follow up on a the homework assignments and the dog will be heeling with the old-method. You can still get a happy dog if you add motivation, as David implied, and Richard eloquently described.

I understand for a trully happy dog, the modern motivational method is the best (but time consuming).

Great Thread. Although it seems like the politically incorrect method here, I've had more success using David's method. The decoy at my club just shows his dog the "toy"(his reward) and the dog is totally focused and 100% obedient. I, like probably most people, lack the skill to get the results using only positve motivation. I think a combination of praise and correction is more practical for us novices. What happens when you don't have the toy, hot dog , ect with you ? or if the dog simply isn't interested in the toy on a certain day ? I'd like to hear more on how to implement the reward system. I learned the "Old school" way, but I want to learn.

Don : like on all training methods ,what works for one will not work for another .I have used this method and have had great results ,and i have also used hotdogs ,balls ,hoses. they are all motivators. All dogs are different and all have different levels of drives ,so i would not just throw this out the window. Training dogs is all abouts results ,goals and methods to get there . Good luck Peter

Many otherwise normal dogs are eventually banished from the house because their owner simply was afraid to say no in an effective and deterring way.

No doubt it is most humane to set behavior parameters and stick staunchly to these rules. Once these behavior rules are established your dog will adapt naturally and continue to reap the rewards of a balanced home and ultimately a benevolent owner.

This section uses a correction in the form of redirection. This method of "roaming attention” will give you a tool for correcting your dog without his resentment of your control and discipline in the future.

Despite the publicity and banner wavers of training "positive only" methods, I will stand as a solid voice for sanity and recognize the benefits of having control of my dog. It is quite possible to control your dog and have him still love you with tail wagging in obedience. Countless former clients are living proof of this fact.

Though a dog is not a wolf, he is (now scientifically proven to 5 female wolves from Asia) a descendent of this species. There is absolutely no reason to feel guilty about leading your dog or controlling his behavior. In fact domestication has made it natural and needed. “Follow the Leader” is deep rooted into his genetic makeup. A real personal relationship will flourish if you are balanced and stable enough to lead him, reward him and connect with love toward him.

Remember a pack is not a democracy. You must learn to be a leader in order to maintain his overall mental stability and preserve his ability to adapt to uncertain environments away from his home. You are the example not the leash holder or treat giver.

This one method will be of more benefit then almost any other training technique because it sets the foundation for discipline when discipline is called for. It becomes a useful deterrence for bad behaviors but at the same time is not overtly harsh. This foundation method is simply a life long way of communicating “no” effectively as well as pay attention to me. Control of our dog is truly essential in today’s society and it is a myth if you think you cannot have control and a happy working dog.

I will can tell you REWARD reinforce the positive behavior when it happens which is the loose lead and close proximity to the handler who should have ALREADY established a positive reward system that requires the dog to give eye contact before he receives his reward. It is so easy to do yet few understand the method. So we accept happy dogs that cannot heel to standard as the result.

Before I turn this topic upside down I should make an important clarification in this technique that may of may not have been conveyed to the original poster.

You do not correct the dog with a pop on the leash but he receives a tug because you have headed in another direction when he was not paying attention. You do not take off in another direction ONLY when he not looking at you. If done correctly he will does not think you corrected him. He associates his lack of attention to the reason… “Wow … I did not see we were leaving.” And then to - “Wow every time I look away you leave.” To - “Ok Mr. Trickster I have my eye on you and anyway I like the reward!”

NO harm and TONS of good things have happened but I will not mention them here for lack of time today.

Remember, he knows you are the leader so don’t be afraid to do lead.

When the dog starts to walk in the direction of the handler he should be positively reinforced to continue toward the handlers direction. AT NO TIME should the dog be corrected for lagging. Something novices are prone to do. You do not correct a lagging dog. You do not correct a lagging dog. You do not correct a lagging dog.

He is lagging because he is trying to pay attention to you! If he is lagging for any other reason he has reasons and all of them are your fault. Slap yourself and think deep into what happened to cause it but do not correct a lagging dog. If you think your actions are causing it you need to think about how you are motivating the dog positively. Some questions that come to mind: Are you making the session to long? Does the dog understand he has some control on triggering his reward from you? Did he get a jerk as he was coming to you or looking at you? If you cannot find any fault in your application of the technique I suggest video taping a session for a better view.

If your dog makes the choice to go where you are leading him on a loose lead you now have a thinking dog not just a reactive dog. Plus you have developed a tool to refocus your dog when and if certain behavior issues arise.

Most problems with this method are the result of the handler not understanding the technique fully before they employ it and they tend to use to short of a leash on a improperly fitted corrective collar. You can use a flat collar for most dogs. You will also need a long line 10 – 15 ft not a 5-foot leash. The dog needs to have room to think about the area between you and him so he can understand that closing the distance between you and him was not only a good idea but also a rewarding one. If the leash is to short the dog may think he is being corrected. Having no clear understanding of why he is being corrected his attitude will suffer.

When he lags simply encourage him to come up with praise and slight increase of footsteps without increasing your speed. (Simulate speed)

We have become so bent on the idea that a dog cannot be a happy heeling animal unless he sees PAY DAY.” I wonder then why not tie a rib eye steak around our necks when we heel our dogs. Please understand rewards are an absolute must in training and I think all training should be reward based. REWARD BASED not lure based. I think rewards should be earned and not presented until my designated target for the reward.

I also I think the use of a ball or toy held high as to SIMULATE eye contact “increase working drive” and attention is poor training really. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It is a matter of a few days to teach the dog to offer eye contact when he thinks his eye contact will produce his reward. (on a variable schedule of course) His drive will be high but he is not turned into a hilarious mutt whose focus is solely on his already presented reward and not lesson at hand or the standards he need to conform to.

There are several other reasons to teach the dog handler attention using similar method described in this original posting.


Now that I have tossed the fox in the henhouse, send in the hounds…
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Dennis while I do agree with most of what you said I dont agree with everything.

I dont think carrying treats in your mouth or a toy under your chin is bad training.If this is what gets your dog loaded and puts the dog into the desired drive then great.A dog working in this kind of drive has given you its full and undivided attention and anything you can teach the dog in this frame of mind is going to come more near sinking in and sticking with it.

I first saw this ong lead tech. on a tape about ten years ago. I gorget his name but he clamed to be the trainer of the movie dogs in hollywood.On the tape he would literally drag the dog on its back if it was tangled in the lead. I just consider it as another tool in the basket. I wouldnt use it for training but I have used it for adults that insist on forging ahead and want to pull you on your nose.

Ron