Connie,
I have some thoughts...Yes we are excited with the progress we made today. We will not let anyone touch or talk to her. She is in training and will be forever.

My question is if Kinsa can look to us for direction and we give her the direction that all is good and she shows no signs of distress, should she still be crated?

I actually spoke to the trainer about this. If we have many people to our home and I cannot give her my full direction then she should be crated. I cannot set her up for failure. But if we have a visitor that will come and leave within a period of time and show her that not all people are bad, why not take that as a time to build her up? Again this only happens when we can give Kinsa our full attention and not be distracted.

Seeing her for the first time ever look to us for direction was a major milestone. She wasn't panting or questioning she was truly looking to ask what do I do. The response was "plots", down stay, and she was accepting. She really did not show any signs of distress.

I would also like to add that Kinsa showed an excitement at praise for a job well done. After each visitor left we told her "good dog" and patted her on her chest. She instantly went into play drive, grabbed her ball and tossed it to us. We did not play with her until that drive subsidded, because we feel that takes her back into being in control. We waited for her to calm down and then invited her to play on our terms. We all loved it!

I look forward to your thoughts,
Wendy

Interacting with people is very stressful on a dog like Kinsa. You want to prevent that stress from building up. You haven't had her for a long time, and she doesn't fully trust you. And she hasn't had time to fully decompress from her previous homes and really settle into yours. She has however had a lot of time in her life to learn to be distrustful of/unsure around people.

At this stage in the game you need to be 110% sure that she doesn't stress out about people. Putting her in the crate/removing her from the room is the best way to do that. Because inevitably something will happen - a child will need you and while you're helping them some one else will go over and try to pet your dog or something like that. Then you're back to square one, or even further behind. Especially if she bites/nips. But even if she doesn't, she's lost some of her security and trust in you.

I would figure on management, management, management for the next 6-12 months at least. Maybe longer. You've had some successes today which is wonderful to hear and I'm very, very happy for you. But the problem is not yet solved. And you sure don't want to push her to far (which happens far. too. often) when you've just barely started on the road to success.

I logged in to reply but you beat me with a better post than I could have
made.

 Quote: Wendy Bumbernick

My question is if Kinsa can look to us for direction and we give her the direction that all is good and she shows no signs of distress, should she still be crated?

Wendy,
Is she crate trained and comfortable there? If the answer is yes; I would crate her and marker train to reward for good behavior in the crate during the visit. If no I would get her crate trained and at the very least tether her to me; so that even if you get distracted you will be aware of her presence.

I don't want to rain on your parade because what you are doing is fabulous but the success you had today could have been influenced by the trainer and your confidence after having a good outcome BUT you don't have close to enough work in to be allowing unrestrained access in a room with visitors. That being said I am not a professional trainer so you are probably well served to listen to the professional.

 Quote: Barbara Schuler

A dog with you for the long haul is a good thing.

This is such great news Wendy!! Congratulations on your decision, it sounds like a really good one.

Please, protect her at ALL times.

You are still not 100% sure of her reactions. Allowing her to be present with guests right now, even for short periods, has the potential to set her back each time, ultimately making progress much slower. Knowledge is exciting, especially if it’s helping to improve your situation, but you need to be patient, rehabilitation takes time. Small steps forward.

You have just realized that she has been assuming a leadership role and are now taking charge of her actions. It will take some time for her to adjust (completely comforting to her I might add) just as you are adjusting to your new role. You are both learning – this is not a time for testing.

You need to provide a stable environment with no uncertainty or fear for her - at ALL times. The odd introduction, with you observing her behavior – HOPING that it’s going to be what you are working on -is not good enough. Possible confusion or hesitation can happen so quickly, and in a split second someone could get bit. Then you’ll be wondering what went wrong when she was doing so good. As Connie said – set her up to be successful, EVERY time.

Please, right now, take the extra 2 minutes to get her settled in her crate before you invite someone in. You will know when the time is right to move to the next step. You won’t be questioning - you will be in charge, with the plan.

It’s so very exciting to read about the progress you are making and I commend for what you are doing. Kinsa sounds like a very special girl.

And I know you know, we are here for you, each step of the way, if needed. Keep up the great work!!

 Quote: wendy bumbernick

After each visitor left we told her "good dog" and patted her on her chest. She instantly went into play drive, grabbed her ball and tossed it to us. We did not play with her until that drive subsidded, because we feel that takes her back into being in control. We waited for her to calm down and then invited her to play on our terms.

As well, depending on your timing with this praise (immediately after Kinsa sees the guest leave) I can’t help but think that this is teaching her “gone guests are good”. They leave, I get rewarded, kicking in the excited play drive, possibly creating a different undesirable behavior. You want her neutral to guests coming and going. A calm, relaxed dog at all times, before or after.

 Quote: Sheila Buckley

I would crate her and marker train to reward for good behavior in the crate during the visit.

This is such excellent advice and why the crate is so important right now. It will give her a controlled, structured, expected behavior while the hustle and bustle is happening and will take the focus off the visitor. You will be rewarding her for the actual behavior at the time. When it’s time to let her out you are then able to decide when it’s appropriate to drive the excitement (petting her and presenting her with the ball). It will be on your terms and not just because the guest has left.

Again,
Thanks for all the good input. We had a few visitors to our home today. When the doorbell rang, Kinsa barked but we immediately told her to come and got her attention away from the door. We then told her to "kennel up" and crated her. She did so with a little hesitation, but then was happy to go. She stayed there quietly. Her crate is in an upstairs landing area where she can still hear and see most of what is going on. I quietly checked on her a few times, and while she was still alert, she was not barking, panting or fussing. CJ, took your advice, and waited some time after our guests had left to bring her out. She sniffed us all up and down, but we just ignored it, and after she relaxed we started some play time. We are ALL reallying enjoying our new found leadership! I am going to say this again for all those that may be following this lead..."we thought we were providing good leadership to our dog, but we were not". It is very humbling to admit when you are wrong, but it is also so fullfilling once you make a realization and take the actions to make a difference. We and Kinsa love our new roles. We know it is going to take some time to build the trust, but we also know that we will all be better for it.

Our new trainer has given me some of the same advice that you have all kindly given. We have to be alert to actions before they ever take place, even the smallest distraction by us could set her backwards. Let me also say this trainer has called twice since our initial visit to check on our progress and to encourage us to call him anytime for any reason. This to me is someone who is really looking out for our best interest. We had already paid him, upfront, for training with us, so we know the calls are sincere and he is really looking to help all of us in our training. I live in southern maryland, so if anyone is looking for help please let me know and I will refer you to him. Let me also say, I do not get anything for a referral, I would be forwarding his information just because I feel he is good at what he does. He is also not set on any one form of training. He will do a free evaluation and discuss different training options, letting you know what he feels is best, but allow you to make all the final decisions.

I know that many of you who are following this feed are very qualified, so I am saying this to others who may be reading and not responding. Please don't ever just hire a trainer, just because they are a trainer. Don't be afraid to ask questions. Don't be afraid to really give an account of your situation as you see it. Remember that your viewpoint may be off course, so be open to input. I actually had two trainers turn me down...one because she didn't feel capable of handling our dog(I commend her for doing that) and the other because she would not consider any other form of training than her food based reward system(we did not feel this was right for our situation). We also turned another trainer down because they wanted to take the dog for "7-10 business days" to train her and then work with us for two sessions. I am not against this type of training, but we knew we needed some training as well. Also, this place smelled so bad that we could not allow our dog to be left there. The bottom line is really look at your situation, be open to outside input...this forum has been great, and remember what is right for your dog and then what is right for you will come out in the results. Just please be open, but rely on your heart to do what is right.

Thanks again to all,
Wendy and Kinsa

PS. I am not too computer literate, so as soon as I figure out how to post a picture, I will. Kinsa is a beautiful dog. Anyone who wants to give me direction on this, please do so!

This is so wonderful to hear Wendy!! I'm glad you've found a compatible trainer that really cares about you guys. Also sounds like the visits went really well yesterday. I'm so glad to hear you are crating her.

Again, my only caution would be not to move too quickly. She's had a while to develop this behavior and it will take some time to correct it. Keep it simple, uncomplicated and set her up for success every time.

Pictures would definately be welcome!! I think there is a thread on here that explains how to do it. I'm not good at links but the search feature should probably get you some instructions.

Again, excellent news and great job!!

Hi,
I have a question for you all. We cannot kennel Kinsa due to her insecurities because it makes her ill. We have to go out of town this weekend and have a housesitter who is going to take care of her. The housesitter came by this week to meet her and go over things. The housesitter, Diane, is going to come by tomorrow while I am out to do a test run. I am so fearful... I told Diane about Kinsa, and she does not seem concerned. She breeds and trains Mastiffs and is not afraid of large dogs. Also, Kinsa did fine with boarding, the one time we did it, except for the fact that she had stomach problems and would not eat. I am just fearful that since she is in our home, a more comfortable place for her, she may be more aggressive. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,
Wendy