Its naive to think that the Germans did not spread missinformation or kept some things secret. That was standard practice. At that time, everything was a matter of national security and many divisions of their military were not privy to what others were doing. Catherine

In the late 60's and 70's when Schutzhund started in the U.S. by German trainers?

Catherine train some dogs, you may learn something....

I've been very busy laughing, but I couldn't resist weighing in here.

Gee, let's see... not only did we Americans have dogs in WWII, but so did the British, the French, and the Russians. Since our combined forces WON the war, hmmmm... maybe we had better dogs?

Pete Felknor

I don't think either one of you know much about military machinations. We won the war ergo we had better dogs? No, nor did we have superior aviation technology (among others).

Seriously, von Stephanitz created a wonderful breed and his dogs could do amazing things. How could this man who knew dogs have been so wrong in his assessment of the female in so many people's opinion?

Catherine,

After 15 1/2 years in the military I think I know a little about how it works. Maybe you should go live a little and learn some things before you continue to discuss things that you obviously, and admitedly, know nothing about.

Either that or go hide....I heard aliens are landing next week!!!!!!

First my condolences to the American members of the board, some 90 Australians are also missing in NY so our nation is grieving too. Where this is all going to end who knows but as Bush says the US along with its allies stood down many other enemies the Germans, Japs and Communists amongst them.

Religous fanatics wont fare any better, they say their eager to die for their beliefs, no worries Im sure the US militairy will help facilitate that wish.

As for the comments about Hitlers dogs the only footage Ive seen of Hitlers dog is Blondy a bitch GSD. If you see the footage shot at Berchsgarten (spelling?) in Bavaria of Blondy out on the balcony with the swine youll see that she displays all the classic signs of a abused dog. She cringes around the accursed hitler and has no confidence. Its clear to me that hitler used to beat his dog. Who else would dare to hit it? Anyone who doubts it should see the footage, you see it on a lot of war docos.

As for all the crap about the germans dog training secrets what purile bullshit, the english deployed dogs in their thousands during the first world war as did all the other european nations in the war. What secrets? It isnt nuclear physics you dont have to be einstein to train a dog.

Wars arent won through secret training practices but rather through economic strenght. The entry of the Soviet Union and the United States into the war against meant Germany had no chance of victory.

Dogs are a mere tool for soldiers no different than a rifle or shovel. Lacking dogs might mean less casualties or finishing campaigns a bit sooner but its the industries churning out the rifles and shovels that win the war not the dogs. Better massive fire support than all the dogs in the world.

And thats why these terrorists are fools, the US could absorb a dozen world trade center attacks and still go on business as usual. The japs too thought the US would buckle after pearl harbour, they knew different by the time the enola gay finished its work.

Richard,
You again didn't disappoint me. Merely being in the military doesn't mean you know how intelligence operations work. Its a world unto its own. Should I list my credentials?

Brendan,
I do agree with 99% of what you say. The point was merely that Germans could and did keep secrets and spread missinformation. As did we all.

Thank you, Brendan. I'd like to extend my condolences to you.

My husband's cousin lives in Manhattan and works in the stock exhchange on Wall St., and it took two days to find out if she was OK or not. I can't imagine how painful it must be to have loved ones still unaccounted for.

I just hope that the US does not use this anger and fear to spill more innocent blood and create even more hatred toward America. Joe and Jane Afghan are not our enemy, and the Taliban government was not democratically elected. They stole power through violence and bloodshed. Waging war against Afghanistan will not eliminate terrorism, nor will killing Afghani women and children do honor to our fallen firefighters nor the dead and missing in NY and Washington. I want to see justice done, but starting another war will not lead to justice, only more bloodshed.

Renee and Richard:

My compliments are getting old.

Kent:

I think we are coming down hard on you because we've been through all this so much with Catherine. But I must be a little negative with you. The breeding question was answered in detail in this thread by experts. And your comparison of defensive and fight drive is very way off. Even if you were just browsing you would have caught that. But welcome aboard and I look forward to exchanging ideas.

Ps. Come on guys let's not scare off everyone that disagrees with us. It will get real boring.

Pss And I know it might not sound like it sometimes but Catherine we do appreciate your participation in the board even though frustrating sometimes.

Good Post Vince. If we all agreed on everything, this would all be very boring.

Hello all,

Please excuse if this posting goes to the wrong area. I'm trying to learn my way around the board.

I was quite surprised by some of the negative comments, but that is ok. I just have the intent here to share some things.

I did not go into detail about my backgound in my prior post. Yes, I currently work in Insurance. I was in the U.S. military from 1981 until 1992, U.S. Army, combat arms & Military Police, Restricted area security, etc. Educated at Virginia Military Institute and U.S. Military schools. But, that does not matter to me. I not here to make reference to my experience or parade credentials. What I'm trying to do is put some information out there that I think could help those that train and work with service dogs/working dogs.

Drive theory - currently vogue, tied to Schutzhund and other sport. I don't believe some of the ideas behind it. The dog is not a "driven" animal, unless you are refering to an animal that is out of balance and has been bred to be wild for a ball, kong, rag, etc. A working dog should be a thinking animal. It should be serious, stable, calm. Many call dogs from sport lines or trained with sport techniques, "working dogs" They are sport dogs being used for work.

A comment was made about how the knowledge of the dogs was lost after WWII. Exactly true. Before and during WWII there were a few men at the top of the German Dog training program that saw the whole picture and coordinated the program. This knowlege had always been a mentor/diciple system. The entirity of the knowledge was known to a limited number of men. The training was segmented. Many of the trainers only knew part of the work. They trained the soldiers and dogs in only one part. They did not see the whole picture. It was done this way for a reason. The Germans knew the value of their dogs. The breeding records were destroyed at the end of the war. But, the records of the death camps were not. Think about it. This is a statement of the degree of importance to which the Germans held those dogs. The Germans had developed three different types of GSD that was used in the war effort.

The program in its entirity was not known to many, before, during or after the war. Were there Germans who survived the war that had this knowledge? Yes. Was there more than one? Yes. Did they continue to closely guard what they knew? Yes. You have to remember, these men did not openly share what they had even before and during the war. Many knew a part, but few knew the whole. Many only knew enough to carry out their role. Were the German military dogs used during the war female - Yes. These dogs were so elite that our Military during WWII offered a huge amount of money for each German dog captured. Had there been GSD's in the U.S.A. after WWI and during the 1920's and 1930's? - Yes. Remember, our military wanted the German GSD's that had been part of the military breeding program. These dogs were very special and the U.S. Military knew it. My point is, only a few Germans before, during, or after WWII had the knowledge of those at the top of their Military dog training program. Did the average Schutzhund participant in Germany after WWII know all of this? No. Did the average German military trainer and handler in Germany since WWII have this - No. Remember, Germany's military after WWII was our minion. Germany was no longer in the hands of the Germans. The Germans of that generation (WWII) knew there was power in the old ways. These men that developed the German dog program in the 1920's and 1930's were products of the old mentoring system. A few had passed the knowledge (in its entirity) on to a few. This continued after WWII. There are those out there that have this. It has been passed on to some. Is this often broadcast? No. Is it very different from what so many have practiced and come to believe for the past 50 years or so? Absolutely. This knowledge/work and methods will either intrique a person and attract them or repell them. Someone will either want to be open to the truth (even if is is different from what they have held as dear for many years) or not. I'm not trying to criticize anyone here. Just because something is not commonly known or practiced does not make it inferior. If I was a master of something, I would leave it to be a trainee of something whole and true and better. What makes some of you assume that I for a long time did not believe in drives, prey monster dogs, Schutzhund sport, tennis balls and the full mouth bite?

To comment on Germany losing the war, there were many reasons. The quality of their dogs and their dog program was not one of them.

As for the mis-information in "The German Shepherd Dog in word and picture" - well, it is in there. If someone does not believe it that changes nothing. There is a lot of truth in that book. But not all. On purpose. The Germans knew what they were doing.

As for the comment about having a direct pipeline to a former S.S. Officer or one of his diciples, how did you know?

When the German Shepherd's dog was being developed, the herding breeds of Europe were used. The GSD in the early years would have been considered a Mutt by many today. So, I will finish this reply with a question for you all. What is a GSD? 1. A dog with "pure lines" - GSD only in pedigree all the way back to 1890? - or 2. A dog that has some Malinois, Dutch Shepherd, Beuceron in its lineage (even if only a little) to keep it as it was.

You can't change what is.

I care about the dogs and how things can be made better.

I expect some ridicule. That's ok.
I await your reply. - Kent Iroler