Nice point ikor. You to Dave. I wasn't fast enough to comment on the sniffers. You will always be able to find good detection dogs, not difficult. My father, when he was breeding and importing, would often give away the medium dogs to local PDs with a lot of start work in scent detection. Basically he would give 'em his Schutzhund/Protection/Patrol "wash outs" to do that work.

I'm looking into your question Dave. Does anyone know what the percentages are of dogs that do all phases, versus one particular area, for all dogs? (not just rescues?)

Dave - New England has placed dogs for both dual purpose patrol and single purpose, and SAR. I will let you know what I hear back from other rescues. This is a pretty frequent occurence from what I have gathered.

I know the "New England" you are speaking of is NOT me!!! I have donated 1 SAR dog who came from rescue. I also am currently training a Narc dog who came from rescue. Just wanted to clear that one up. I don't know too many Dutch Mals or Czech GSDs sitting in local pounds for me to make patrol dogs from. Who were you speaking of in "New England?" Perhaps it would be better to list exact Depts and not lump all the states into one bunch. I have NOTHING against a rescued dog doing the work if they can do it! I just have not seen many that could...for patrol work that is. On a side note, the CT State Police only take "donated" dogs. This does not mean local depts that go through CSP's class do, most probably 99.9% buy green dogs for the class. CSP mostly get their dogs from Fidelco "flunkies" who have too much ummmph for guide dog work. Sorry if it sounded like a rant, but it was sorta close to home..LOL

I am speaking of rescue Josh - New England Rescue has placed dogs for dual purpose. How many shelters do you check out? And how many rescues have you evaluated? And can you tell me what percent of dogs on forces are dual purpose or single pupose? I can keep an eye out for your area if you are interested in shelter dogs. As I said before, you'd be surprised of the caliber of dogs in rescue, particularly ones bought from dumb ass people who sell them a dog with a high drive that they have no hope of being able to handle, and a first right of refusal clause that doesn't mean anything. No worry about your rant, LOL, this is my version of a rant. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

laureen, I'm in you camp(not vancamp) I'm just curious where are you getting your info from?Is there are a national register of rescue dogs that get donated or sold to departments?

Milt - I run a GSD rescue in Ontario, and am in close contact with GSD rescues in most states.

I have all the respect and sympathy in the world for those who do rescue and who work/run shelters. I'll tell you up front...I couldn't do it. Every time I go into one it makes me both sad, and mad as Hell. I say good luck to you Laureen and to all those dogs waiting for a home where someone cares.

Still, where serious PSD's are concerned, we cannot afford to allow our emotions to over ride our objectivity. Others before me have pointed out that there are Real consequences when a Police Service Dog fails to perform. You don't just lose a trophy or some points...someone could very well lose their life. There simply is no room for less than the very best performance every time the team is deployed.

Yes, a few agencies may make do pretty well with "donated" dogs, but not many of them come from shelters. In fact, in a few cases, these are high-dollar dogs donated by folks with lots of money.

Fact: A "full work-up" at the vet will cost around $450-500 for x rays, CBC, worming, vaccinations and teeth cleaning. You ARE going to have him checked out, right? An insurance bond for a biting dog (in my state) costs around $750-800 per yr. Handlers' salary...lets keep it low...$10hr.+ an added 50% for benefits = $15hr. Trainer...big bucks...$20hr. + 50% = $30hr. Crate $100...dog pen...built right...$1500...vehicle + cage...$15-25 thousand...are you beginning to realize how much this stuff costs?

If you do the math, and make allowances for the trainer to spend only half as much time with the dog as the handler, you are going to have a minimum of $35,000...probably more...invested in this team when they hit the street. Even without the vehicle we are still talking around $20,000...for our "free" dog.

Assuming such a dog will pass a full 12wk.(minimum) PSD course is a BIG assumption, but let's say he does. The only thing we have "saved" is the initial price of the dog...all other costs are fixed. If a single dog makes it half way through the program and washes out, that is a loss of thousands invested plus time to find another dog (LOL with the next shelter search) plus thousands more to get the next dog up to the point where the previous one failed.

For $3500-5000 we could have bought a young, started dog already tested by people who have forgotten more about what to look for than most shelter volunteers will ever know. That dog will come with a health guarantee, a guarantee to pass a basic course and a maximum time guarantee for a replacement dog of equal quality if he washes out during training. He will be started on tracking, obedience and...for damn sure...will bite. (No one is going to buy a Po-lice dog that won't bite!)

He may be as clabbered up in the head as a sprayed roach, or a good, stable dog...these dogs, like all those you did not raise yourself, come with baggage, but if you pick your broker well there ARE some very reputable, honest guys out there who will not knowingly sell you crap. The cost for a good young dog is actually LESS than the cost of washing a "free" dog out and starting over. Believe it!

I am personally familar with only three or four agencies who use exclusively "donated" dogs. Of these, only one has what I would call a good Canine program using serious PSD's for general response type Law Enforcement (The kind where they make House Calls!) and as far as I know, none of their PSD's have come from shelters.

"Never" is a very long time, so I will not say you will never get a serious candidate from a shelter. We all know it could happen...and I could win the lottery this week. I will say what I have said before...your most precious commodity is TIME
...and that is what you gain when you buy started young dogs.

Period, end of thread, this one is over, ikor put the ball in the net right at the buzzer. Bam. . .That is what I'm talking about. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

He is right in my, not so humble, civilian trainer opinion. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I thought it was more like a backboard shattering dunk!! A little bit of money ($3500-5000 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> )
from the start can go a long way in taking luck out of the picture. The same can be said no matter what your intentions are for a dog. It's a case of spending money to save money (and time) in my opinion.