Ann,

The clicker is only meant to mark a behavior the same way we would say "good" when they do something right. You should not be using the clicker until the dog understands what it means. You would need to spend a little time with your dog making your dog understand that the click always means a treat. Some dogs pick it up after 1-2 minutes and others 5-7 minutes. You know the dog is ready when he is looking the other way and you click and he turns toward you for his treat which means the association has been made. You also don't ask your dog to sit right off, as the word is foreign to an untrained dog. You wait for the behavior and then click and treat. It might take a few repetitions depending on the dog but before he realizes it he has done something right and is anxious to repeat the behavior. Once that happens, then you begin using the verbal command and he now understands sit. You would eventually fade the click and only use rewards variably once heshe is solid. There is no method that works 100% of the time for 100% of the dogs but I have found that generally speaking positive reinforcement makes a happy and eager working dog. But I also believe there are other trainings techniques which might be more effective depending on the situation and dog.

Karen Nesbitt, GREAT explainations on clicker use. You really do know your stuff. Ann, the thing about using the clicker (and what I have the most trouble with) is PATIENCE and time. Some dogs get the 'loading' in one session (I'm thinking of a dratted Border Collie here) and other may take a few seperate and small sessions for a few days. Rather than one 'session' of 30 click/treats and decide your dog 'got it' (and it sounds like your dog was already not liking the sound). 3 seperate sessions of 10 click/treats may have worked better.

And what were your treats? Cause they should have been used on a dog that had NOT been fed the usual earlier meal(s), and be roast beef/liver/chicken/liverworst/cheddar cheese/etc. NOT a 'normal' dog treat. Something really special that will have your dog going 'WOW WHERE DID THAT COME FROM AND HOW CAN I GET SOME MORE!!!!!'

Also, the point that you do NOT use words at all initially are important, you need alot of patience (did I mention something I usually lack). Because (and this is important) INSTEAD of your dog relying on you to push/pop/poke/ it into the position you want (so you do all the work and thinking). You want the DOG TO BE THINKING, you want them to be trying to think about what you want, thinking about how they can earn the 'click/treat'. A THINKING dog, who will try to figure out what you want, get the click and then the treat.

I use the prong collar, I use the e-collar, AND I USE A CLICKER!!! They are all tools that I can use when needed. And they all fail if not understood and used properly. Hey, CHICKENS can learn when trained with a clicker, so I know it works with dogs!

Clicker Solutions says:
The technology is, at its core, very simple:

Get the behavior.
Mark the behavior.
Reinforce the behavior.
For example, say you want to teach your dog to sit. When he sits, you click. Then you give him a bite of his favorite treat. The click means “That behavior right there! That’s what I want!” and “You’ve earned a reward.” If you click and reinforce every time your dog sits, he will soon figure out that sitting earns a treat and offer the sit more often. You can then add a cue, “sit,” to tell him when you want him to do the behavior.

More importantly, clicker training is more than using a clicker to train your dog. It's a different way of thinking, a way of relating to animals that creates a partnership that is mutually reinforcing and pleasurable. As a philosophy, clicker training has evolved from the works and ideas of Karen Pryor, Jean Donaldson, Bob and Marian Bailey, Turid Rugaas, Murray Sidman, and others who believe it's possible to train a dog—or raise a family, or live a successful life—using the principle of positive reinforcement instead of coercion or force.

15 tips for getting started with a clicker

And (not to beat a dead horse on the issue, oops too late), clicker training is a skill (like learning to drive a car with an manual transmission) that needs to be learned, takes alot of time, patience, and a good instructor is a huge help. Heck, if I had stopped in frustration the first time I couldn't get my car from 2nd to 3rd gear (over and over and over) I still wouldn't be driving!

No wonder people get turned off to clicker training.

The concept of "charging the clicker" has been thrown out my most good trainers - cuz all it's teaching, thru CLASSICAL conditioning, is that food follows click. But unfortunately what it's also teaching them is that their behavior has NOTHING to do with WHY you clicked. So you're teaching him that his behavior is not the key to the click, exactly the wrong thing.

No one recommends doing that anymore.

You simply start training, just as if you weren't using a clicker, except you click and reward instead of "yes" and reward.

And also the 'purists' swear you have to leave the cue word off until the behavior is really solid, I personally think that's the stupidest piece of advice on earth. THAT'S why clicker training can take so damn long....cuz your poor dog has no clue WHICH behavior you want at this moment, cuz you won't give him a CLUE (cue)!

So you stand there and stare at each other, or an imaginative dog offers ten behaviors before he hits on the one that you're paying off for today. Then after you've worked that one behavior for a set, guess what he's going to offer next set??? If you wanted to work something else, you have to wait until he gets frustrated with the lack of reinforcement and offers something else. That's stupid. Their only argument for why to do it their way is that the dog learns to associate only a PERFECT behaivor with the cue, rather than associating all the intermediate forms of the behavior (slower or crooked, etc) with the cue. But that goes so much against learning theory! If you use differential reinforcement (the SELECTIVE reinforcement of the best repetions of the behavior and ignore the lesser quality ones) the dog learns instantly what does and doesn't pay off. . .and he stops offering the poorer quality versions.

I taught my 8 wk old pup to sit, down, here, g'blaut, and fuss all in the first week and all on cue right from the first iteration. They QUICKLY learn that 'sitz' means I will only pay off for that behavior, and then I can shift to a different behavior only 15 seconds later and they have no problem recognizing that now I want something else.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> i realy missed something big time with my understanding of clicker training.

I thought its strength was in uniform and quick marking of wanted behavior (replacing 'gooooooood boy/girl'), and it is clasical conditioning click/drool (whats wrong with that?). Same as e-collar; quick and to the point.

What about clasical conditioning warning for punishement? Than i go out with two clickers with diferent pitch and click/click...Would that be even more humane? I think not.

Yes maybe I don't understand why clicker training is so popular now. The one thing that I still don't get is how to controll unwanted behavior with the clicker. I am trying very hard to understand this and sometimes it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks, but I just don't see how I would ever feel comfortable in all situations with a dog trained by a clicker. I find that leash and verbal corrections work so much better for me. I know it's all about the timing and the type of dog you are working with, and maybe the dogs I work with are just as confused as I am <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> but I think for myself I will pass on the clicker. For those of you who have good results with it more power to you, and I give you alot of credit. Thank you all for trying to explain this to me, it has helped but like I said I think I will stick to what works best for me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I do not think there is a way to control unwanted behaviour with a clicker other than to teach an incompatible behavior. I have been pleased with it for teaching precise behaviors -- e.g. place your nose on the scent source for cadaver.

The proponents I have talked with, and do know one very good clicker trainer, explain that the negative behaviour will extinguish with no positive reinforcement. Of course a lot lf behaviors are self rewarding so that is where I do have some problems with everything they may say.

A dog that is keyed into clicker training WILL offer behaviors to get the response whereas dogs with too much compulsion are scared to offer different behaviors for fear of correction. This opens up to the ability to teach a wide array of complex behaviors and is very motivational and makes the dog think.

Like many tools it is a wonderful item for the toolkit but not the only one. I don't know why people would be so quick to knock it. I do have problems with some of the clicker crowd who knock any physical correction at all.

If you can wrap your head around using rewards while training a dog and praising your dog, you can use a clicker. It has certain advantages over the traditional "YES!" that many good trainers use.

I've really converted my training in the last year, or so, to include a good dose of clicker work, especially with my pups.


And let me be absolutely clear. . .I am of the opinion that positive reinforcement in dog training will only take you so far. A "Clicker Trained Dog" isn't a trained dog unless there has been a point in the training where he has learned that not only is it rewarding to perform, but he MUST perform. . .or else.

I'm also of the opinion that if you are dog training and you don't use anything but verbal "praise" and corrections. . .you are a very poor dog trainer. The opposite of the positive only extreme is just as bad.


The clicker shouldn't be a gimmick IMO, it is basically just a conditioned reinforcer that takes the place of a verbal one. . . because it does a better job than the verbal one.

It's that simple, some of the clicker gurus and positive only wackos are the ones who have made it something gimmicky and nearly mystical. I hate that.

I like punishment for taking care of the unwanted behaviors. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> LOL


(i.e. Prong the hell outa them!)

Captain Correction is back... I was beginning to get worries. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I think I'm going to try some clicker work when I get my pup... since that's the time to be purely motivational I don't think it can hurt... If it doesn't seem to get the results I'll just put it back in the ol tool box.

Originally posted by Tara Flaming:
I wish you could show me in person. I'd like to try a little experiment. First, I'd like to take an untrained dog and a bag of yummy treats. Every time that dog sat, I'd not say a word and give a treat. Predictably, the dog would start to sit more and more, in hope of getting the treat (this is how positive reinforcement works).

Then I'd like to take another untrained dog, and every time the dog sat apply that low level, momentary stim (without saying a word). I would be VERY interested to see if you got an increase in sitting or a decrease. I would bet money you'd see a decrease in sitting (or possibly no change). IF there was an increase in sitting (the way it works with a treat), that would truly be fascinating to me, and would make the example you are giving much more feasible, IMO. But I just don't think it would happen that way. that is pretty silly... at no point did I state that a stim is an Unconditioned Reward, which food clearly is for most dogs.

I said that the stim could be seen as a Conditioned Stimulus that was not a punisher

CS and UR are pretty different..

and by the way, you could absolutley make a stim into a CR... not hard at all.