Chris, it’s very impressive that you have taken the time to dissect my words line by line.
So I will do the same.

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So you shouldn't breed, if 8 pups born have the ability to reproduce you do have an impact, a breeder is "SUPPOSE" to offer pups that are going to improve the breed in which he is breeding. A breeder is always suppose to strive to contribute to the betterment of his breed. To Breed without that goal in mind is what your saying in the above quote,

No Chris, that’s what YOUR saying. Once again, I’m not an extremist, I’m a realist.
I have invested a lot of time and money to fly to Germany and personally select the stock I breed from. I would not have done so if my intentions were to perpetuate the breed for a fast buck instead of improving it, there are easier and less expensive ways of doing that with which I’m sure you’re familiar. If you knew anything about breeding then you would know that the BEST professional breeders in the WORLD are happy to get 1 pup out of a litter of 8 that would be considered breed worthy. That being said, what happens to the other 7? They wind up as pets in someone’s home on their couch. You’re the extremist, should the other 7 be culled? Do we not as breeders also have the responsibility to see that those pups are also placed in the right situation?
Here’s another reality check for you, if those other 7 pups had been from working lines and possessed high drives, but were not exactly what the breeder was looking to hold back to work, how do you think they would fit in to the average family house hold?.....another trip to the local shelter.

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your a backyard breeder who will make a few bucks off some pups and that is as far as this situation is set to go.

Here’s another reality check for you. If you’re doing it the right way you’re not making money. If you have MANY years experience you would consider yourself lucky to break even, regardless of your goals, standards or aspirations. It can NEVER be about the money! As far as your comment that I’m a backyard breeder, 5 litters in 15 years does not constitute backyard breeding, get your facts straight. There are many on this board that produce twice that amount every year. Are you one of them?

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When I breed a litter, I'm going to because I want to put together a combo that will out shine the good parents that I have put together (which by your statement above is not your intentions), If not I'll cut that dogs family tree short.

Good for you, best of luck with your breeding program, but don’t be ridiculous to assume you know anything about me, or my intentions. That’s what makes people like you dangerous; you have a little bit of knowledge and an inflated opinion of yourself. You are going to judge the world and right all the wrongs! Please!

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Your statement leads one to believe that show breeders pass the buck, and wait for the next man to save the breed.

Chris passing the buck or saving the breed as you put is not limited to show breeders, take a hard look around you, unfortunately it comes in all walks of life.
If a working line breeder pays no attention to hips, health and conformation of a dog and only places value on drives and bite work what does that say about them?

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Why don't you do your part as a so called breeder. If "YOU" feel your dog is a good dog, thats good, but just because a dog is a good dog "DOES NOT MEAN IT SHOULD BE BRED".

I am not a so called breeder, once again, YOUR words. I approach breeding systematically, professionally and with a plan and I'm proud of what I produce.
I will only breed a dog that I feel is good. All others I consider nice pets. I will not pimp my stud out for a quick buck, the bitch must meet my standards before I will use my dog on her.

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But your forgetting something, the GSD wasn't created for to breed a dog with good hips, and all that, that’s breeders trying to correct a now developed problem, the goal of the breed, was a "WORKING DOG"

I’m not forgetting anything; you just can’t see the forest from the trees.
How can you better the breed if you don’t screen for health and genetic soundness?
Isn’t it great to have a nice high drive working dog who scores high in trials but who’s hips or elbows are shot, or any other number of health issues emerge after you invested all your time and money in training the dog?
But I guess in your estimation that’s fine because after all the, dog does great bite-work. Who cares about his health, or the health of his progeny?

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"Working at a decent level" that is the same as me telling my kids, they don't need to strive to be president, or a supreme court judge, or a leading heart specialist, they can be content with a Micky D's manager making 35,000 a year, (which is decent in the south) but why not strive for better than just settling for decent. THOSE ARE YOUR WORDS NOT MINE.

Chris, I would think that most of us want what’s best for our families and our dogs.
The important thing to remember is that we have to lay a solid foundation for them to reach their limits. If my son doesn’t become president I won’t be disappointed or cull him from the gene pool. As long as he has his health and is happy with his life that will make me happy.

My sincere thanks to all of you for listening to my side.
Though I may not agree with all you say, I do respect your right to say it.
I can't, nor would I attempt to change your views just as you can not do the same for me.

No hard feelings or animosity on this end.
Best of luck to you all in your future endeavors. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jeff when I bought Cooper I thought I was getting a working dog since both parents and all Grandparents were Sch III. I have since learned there are Sch III and then there are Sch III.
The breeder I dealt with was very honest and told me they were Showline GSD I just did not realize what that meant --my fault not his--.

I have since, after belatedly reading a couple of Mr. Frawly's articles, realized my mistake. Nonetheless, I am glad I accidently got the pup I got. He is perfect for me and my family.

Most people do not want or need a high drive dog and after reading some post here I think a high drive dog would have been to much to handle for my family. (Although I have to admit I like the way the dark sable working dog looks better than the showline black and red).

We have small children and even my Showline can be a challenge when the kids are playing chase. He is only 5 months so we really do not know what type of dog he will turn out to be but so far he has been perfect.

Cooper will not paticipate in Sch. nor will he be a patrol dog. He will sleep in my daughters room and hopefully in a year or so will warn me (and wake up the bullmastiff) if a bad guy ever tries come in my house. I do expect him to warn me of danger but that is all I expect. I do not expect him to protect me or my family that is my job although I will appreciate any assistance he might one day give me.

I do not want a lab or golden retiever. I want a well balanced, smart and loving German Shepherd and that is what I have.

blah, blah, blah, I tried to lead you to the light as everyone else, but this is hopeless, so heres what we'll do. Since your someone I have zero intrest in knowing, why don't we from now on not post to each other. I won't answer any of your posts and you don't reply to mine, as I am not interested in anything you have to say and you obviously are like wise, so for closure, I hope you live a long and prosperous life, take it easy! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
PS: True Working dog breeders do breed for Health, balanced temperment for a working dog, and workability, with all equally as important.

Chris, blah, blah, blah,???
That about says it all.
I was wondering who appointed you "keeper of the light"
Why it must have been you...of course!
You are correct in one thing, the level of interest on my part in regards to what you have to say is also zero.

Best of luck <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It doesn't bother me so much that there are show lines out there. As long as people distinguish between the two, then what should I care? Trent, you have an ideal dog for your situation, and that's great. I do think that when you show a working breed in conformation, that it is inevitable that the breed's working abilities will weaken. For that reason, perhaps it's best that we have the distinct lines that we do. What really bothers me is that some people who have show dogs refuse to admit that fact, and that from what I hear, SchH is watering itself down to cater to those people who want to pretend they have something they don't. The title, especially a III, should mean something real. It should mean that a dog has the ability to add something to the abilities of the breed; or at the very least, won't weaken the breed. SchH is the reason that the GSD developed so quickly into the breed we admire, and it's a shame that people are willing to give that up for the sake of mediocrity.

It's interesting that you mentioned golden retrievers. I used to have one that was a great, happy, smart, goofy dog. Funny thing is that when I saw Andrew's video, I saw more of my old golden than I did GSD. To me the dog looked like a golden retriever in a wolf outfit. I'm sure that it's a wonderful dog, but it isn't a working dog, and it disappoints me that there is a system out there that will allow it's owner the fantasy of thinking that it is, and that will deceive buyers of his dog's pups into thinking they're buying something that they aren't.

I wasn't going to make any comments, but Andrews has posted some things that I thought I'd address.

First off, I played both videos of the dog in the 2003 Sieger show ( being show by it's original breeder in Europe ). Both the protection and courage test videos showed a dog that lack drive, focus , and faulty temperament. The dog slowed down tremendously in the courage test before getting to the helper, it's grip was poor, and it required the out command twice, along with some other command by the handler. The dog looked away from the helper two or three times ( same as in the protection phase ) and worst of all, the dog backed away a significant distance from the helper during it's weak bark & hold - this is much more an indication of poor temperament than poor training.
( To further show the problems of the showlines, this breeder has included a critique from Judge Fritz Andersen which stated " Sure temperament, courage and fighting instinct pronounced.." If that doesn't show you what the big problem is in showlines, you're blind )

Andrew, please don't invite a helper to run your dogs off the field, that's just dumb bravado on your part. I've run many police canines off the fields, I'm fairly well known for it, and if I ran your weak nerved dog off the field,he'd likely be ruined for life and never engage a helper again. I wouldn't even be able to fully temperament test a dog of a caliber that your dog showed in the videos, sorry. This is not meant as an insult, it's the truth.

"You must believe that he was one of the better working dogs out of about 200 that I saw as disturbing as that may sound!"
I believe you, and I wish that wasn't true.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

"As far as what the dog has to offer, if you were to call me and request a pup out of him that you wanted to use for competition I would steer you somewhere else."
And you earned some respect from me by saying that!

"My dog can produce stock that can be shown, and will protect in the home or on the street."

However I'm not believing this for one second, nothing personal, but a dog that can't even do very well on a sleeve is not going to do real world protection - you're just fooling yourself there.

Sue,
Your dogs were some of the ones I was thinking about when I mentioned that showlines GSD's can still put in a decent performance, btw <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Breeding to produce middle of the road dogs is basically breeding to make pets. Look, every working dog litter has some scrap outs that will be on the lower end of drive that would likely make good pets. There's zero reason to actually breed for the middle, it weakens the breed. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

And everybody play nice now..

As was pointed out, Andrew has been civil, and I'm going to be modding insults, so ya'll are warned.

Be nice....< hands everyone a warm oatmeal cookie >

Andrew,

What was your purpose in posting video of your dog on the internet and asking for feedback? (Not really asking for an answer....just posing the question) If you did not realize that you would get both good and bad comments before you hit your send button, then perhaps you should stay away from this rough and tumble playground we all know as the internet. You were offered constructive criticism by many folks, yet you continually go back and attack the "bad guys" that were originally trying to be helpful - the folks who refuse to feed your South Florida ego. It did not turn ugly until you turned defensive and showed an overwhelming amount of ass-i-tude.

As stated in my original post, in layman's eyes, your dog does not appear to be confident and focused on what he is doing. His tail, ears, and stance tell the whole story. He is wagging his tail as if he is playing, and chewing on the sleeve - not giving it a firm bite and hold as I would think would be the desired result. No, I do not have years of experience in the sch world. I am a typical everyday pet owner and would not be afraid of THIS dog, the one in the video, if it ran across the street at me one day. I might even ask it to sit, shake and offer it a cookie. Your dog looked rather sweet and playful, and I'm sure my 3 y/o Golden would enjoy playing tug with him/her. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Experienced or not, quality dog or not, your character, attitude, and mental issues are not worth getting sucked into. The dog may be gold, but you seem to be the type of person who goes looking for trouble when someone even slightly disagrees with you. Don't worry about anyone here ruining your reputation/opinions/knowledge. All someone has to do is Google your name, all your dreaded bullsh*t from this topic will come up, and you'll hang yourself in the long run.

But that's just MY opinion....

No one is trying to ruin a reputation here.
Andrew is going to do what he wants, and I've seen far worse dogs than his bred - at least he's going through the time and effort to breed titled dogs with good hips ( let's give him his dues, ok? ). Everybody, and I mean *everybody* suffers from some degree of kennel blindness regarding their own dogs.

I post "bad dog kennels" periodically here when folks are selling real crap, or scamming people as a warning to prospective dog owners. Andrew is certainly *not* in that category.