Nick wrote: Sure Lou - the guarantee is more of the same training

LC: If it didn't work the first time through it's probably not going to work the second time through, or the third or the fourth . . . This is a bit like going to a doctor who doesn't fix what ails you over and over and over. If the people are incompetent the first time they will be the second time too. If the "family dynamic" isn't right the first time it won't be the second time either. If the clients aren't motivated the first time they won't be the second time either. More than likely, since they're not motivated at all they won't even come back the second time. And they shouldn't have to!

Nick wrote: Get a clue before you make accusations like that - it only makes you look foolish.

LC: What makes one looks foolish is the blanket statement that started this disagreement; that if a trainer doesn't have a demo dog "red flags" should go up. Many of us don't and don't feel the need for one. But most blanket statements are wrong on their face.

Nick wrote: It's interesting that some other posters early in the thread had a few similar things to say

LC: I only saw one other poster, Chris Valdes, respond and agree with you about the question of demo dogs.

Nick wrote: yet you didn't bring up a word... I wonder why ?

LC: In all of your excitement you must have missed the response I addressed to Chris.

Nick wrote: Have an agenda Lou?

LC: Nope, but if you think I do, please share!

Nick wrote: But it is a fact that there is a percentage of people in the world who want results without putting in a full effort... if you can't admit that than I guess you live in a different world than the rest of us.

LC: Of course they exist. So what!? You're not able to motivate these folks and so all you give them is more of the same when the training you give them fails. I'm able to motivate them and so they get their dog trained. You really shouldn't judge others by what you're not capable of doing! Just because you can't do something it's a mistake to believe that others can't.

Nick wrote: Any trainer who wants the best for their client and dog will try as hard as they can to help the person the the nth degree - but at the end of the day if the person just isn't goping to put in the time or effort it will not amount to much.

LC: Blah blah blah. Just more excuses.

Nick wrote: If after that you feel that you should work for free

LC: If the clients aren't satisfied with the results I haven't done what they've paid me for. I shouldn't keep their money, so I won't. I'm not getting paid for my sparkling personality and allowing them to bask in my presence (I'd starve in short order) I'm paid to teach them to train their dog. If I can't, for any reason, I shouldn't be keeping their money and I won't. You OTOH feel that you should be paid for your time, whether or not you get results. It's just a different way of doing business, one that I think is lacking, but I'm not your business manager, so feel free to do as you please. People reading this are also free to make their own decisions about it.

Nick wrote: Maybe your offer of a money back guarantee is one of the ways YOU need to draw business:-)

LC: Now Nick you know that I don't "need" to draw business. I've got a great pension from my LE career. You on the other hand have to constantly get new customers or your bills don't get paid. You're the one who constantly needs new clients, not me. For you it's all about the volume. No wonder you offer the guarantee that you do!

Nick wrote: I see tons of junk being offered on TV informercials with a free money back guarantee - does that put you and your service in the same league with them?

LC: If I was offering junk, I'd constantly be giving people their money back. Yet in over two decades of training dogs, not one person has made such a request. I wonder how many of your clients come back because you weren't able to satisfy them the first time around? There must be at least a few or you would have told us of your perfect record already.

Nick wrote: At the end of the day you don't know me - have never seen me train a dog - never been to my kennel and don't know square one about me

LC: The same is true for you about me. All I've done is talk about your guarantee and how weak your statement is that a trainer must have a demo dog or "red flags" should go up. I've not said anything about the quality of your work. Yet at the same time, you've badmouthed my training. Just in this post you implied that it was "junk." Yet you're talking, as the saying goes, out your a$$! You've read "thank you" after "thank you" on the Ecollar list for help I've given people and for my seminars, so you should have some idea of my results. Another poster in this thread has been to one of my seminars and he seemed satisfied. I won't bother to go back into the other attacks that you've launched against me, but there are plenty of them.

Nick wrote: yet you want to be judge and jury

LC: Nick other than our initial disagreement about demo dogs, you've carried this conversation in the direction it's gone. I've only been responsive to your attacks. I think there is a "judge and jury" present here, the people who are reading it. I've only presented evidence; I'm comfortable in letting folks draw their own conclusions.

Nick wrote: try and ruin someone's credibility by slinging mud.

LC: If your credibility has been ruined, you've done it yourself. People can read and see what kind of trainer you are for themselves. This started because you made some foolish statements about other trainers. You were you mudslinging then. You were trying to be the "judge and jury and try and ruin (their) credibility by slinging mud" then. It's come home to roost. And I'm curious, what "mud" have I "slung?"

Nick wrote: Yet I am still the same guy doing the same training that you thought so nicely of

LC: As I've learned more about you and what you do, my opinion has become more informed. I wouldn't make that same phone call today.

Nick wrote: when someone disagrees with you - you sure can be a PITA.

LC: Yep, and this is a great example of the pot calling the kettle black.

I would *SO* close this post if it were in my power.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I completely agree with Lou Castle's metaphor regarding trainers/sport coaches but as much as I enjoy reading his responses, this thread is eerily becoming a gsdpedigreedatabase clone...can't we just all agree to disagree and move on from there? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

ok...let me see if i got this right....you two are slamming each other cause of red flags and quarantee's...or that is what it started all about....one give a money back quarantee and never had to give one cause he only selects his clients...the other doesn't give a money back quarantee but his clients can come back....either way you both keep the money and the client is satified or both probably wouldn't be in business as long as you both have been..

you both agreed that

 Quote:

I figure he along with satisfied clients are advertising in gold

....

 Quote:

The BEST way to judge a trainer is from what past clients say about him.

so with that said...the big problem was the red flag about having a demo dog...one said

 Quote:

Also if the trainer can't show you their own dogs performing - I would say it is a red flag.

which it could be for some people ..people do like to see the product or the person selling the product what it can and cant do. and he did say to HIM it would be a reg flag. Personal opinion. the other said

 Quote:

Many fine trainers don't have a "demo dog" that they can show you

he didn't say All fine trainers but MANY fine trainers so that would mean that there are many fine trainers that do offer a demo dog

what i what to know is what about the Certificate of Authenticity...ROTFLMAO

do both of you offer them too????? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

first off Nick and Lou need to research a publishing company for there posts. I think "Gone with the wind" was shorter. Second who gives a rip if a trainer has a "demo" dog. Some of the best trainers I have seen don't have demo dogs. If you do then that is your choice. To me it is like stroking your ego. You conderdicted your self nick by saying that you don't know if the trainer trained the dog. so how can you prove YOU trained your dog. You can't. Man where is Ed when you need him. I am with you Will shut it down it is starting to become a d*&^ measuring contest.

HI Matt,
I didn't contradict myself - I was just agreeing with the fact that there is a possibility that the person didn't train their own dog. I'd be naive to say the possibility doesn't exist and people haven't taken false credit for it. That's all - but it doesn't negate the fact that many trainers have trained their own dog.
And as for my own dog - What exactly do you want to know. I bought him from Dianne san lorenzo as a 8 week old puppy and have trained him to do everything he does. Of course there have been decoys to take the bites - but all his Ob, tricks, scent work, weight pulling and bite work was taught by me - only I didn't take the bites (which I think would be farily obvious but just in case someone wants to jump in and point that out - there it is fort ya).
And many friends & clients have been around while the training occured threoughout the life of the dog- I probably have tons of pics and video of him coming up too .. Is that good enough for you?
Are you suggesting I didn't train my own dog Matt? And if the thread or posts bug ya so much - why chime in? I made a simple suggestion to the person who asked a question and then this all got out of hand from there on in - I can admit that I have my part in it - but man this doesn't happen all on it's own...
Nick

I am not saying that is does happen all the time but enough is enough. You (Lou and yourself) have gotten so far off the original topic in your little battle. So when does one say you know what I am done? As for a trainer training his own dog that kind of goes with out saying. I would not go to a trainer that would send his dog out. And I am glad you trained your own dog, and would hope you did. BUT having a Demo dog is not that important. I don't have one. My last adult male was stolen leaving me with just two Mal pups. ......Man now I am getting into it. You know what Nick Have your pissing contest with Lou but take it to a PM neither of you are posting anything remotely helpful for board users.

I agree, you guys must have powerful fingers! And as punishment for making me read 300,000 word posts, both you guys have to help our poor original poster train his dog for free. No arguements either. Get to training boys! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Matt, you have a good reason for not having a demo dog. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
But more importantly, Matt has about three zillion various titles, and has been active in the SE competition scence in multiple venues. I've watched him and his training group drive away with a boat-load of trophies on more than one occasion, to be sure.

And for a general home/ pet dog trainer, I *always* tell folks to look at their titles. With the titles in AKC ( or CKC obedience ) , SchH, PSA or ASR, you know that the trainer has some level of handling skill. When a trainer don't list any titles on their websites, etc. it usually means that they don't have any - and then I suggest that people seek a different trainer. Most professional trainers show competitively in at least some venue, it's an easy way to seperate the hobby trainers from the pro's.

wow, i just read through this whole post, and i feel compelled to respond: i've been reading leerburg for over 3 years now. this board used to contain a lot of useful TRAINING information, and also interesting things about nutrition, conditioning, health issues, etc. this thread is an example of what this board has become: a venue for "internet experts" to type whatever they want and make all kinds of general claims in order to slam others and advertise themselves.
i really miss "the old days" when people like van camp, lee baragona, lynn cheffins, cindy rhodes, etc used to post articulate, helpful posts about TRAINING and problem solving. of course, this is just my opinion and take it as no more than that, but there really is a difference between the board now and the board just a year ago...and threads like this do not help.