I quess thats what I get for picking the independent dog out of the litter. We've been working like that from day one Bob. She still looks to me. But as she has grown older that hard wired nature still asserts its self.
Amazing, no?

I must be doing something wrong, my dog isn't learning.
Randy

 Quote:

The pup starts to stress a bit when it realizes you're gone.

What if they don't?

At 8 weeks, I could only get my pup to "stress" if I disappeared at night, in a strange place.

Otherwise she didn't seem to care too much. She'd run towards me trying to find me..... until something more interesting distracted her (another dog, a leaf, a clump of dirt... ).

Both my females have been pretty independant in that sense. As they got older they became much more focused on me and more interested in following me, but as puppies they could not have cared less.

I have certainly imprinted the recall on all my pups.

I do random recalls with them 100 times a day (ok not that much, but a lot).

I have them on leash (usually the 20-ft line), take off running and say COME!! as I show them a high-value treat or toy. Inevitably they come charging over.

I also do what Ed advises and pop them with the leash if they don't respond IMMEDIATELY to the recall.

My current pup (now 7 months) jumps when I say COME - she doesn't even think about it, she just reacts out of instinct and comes running over thanks to all the imprinting. The leash popping the instant the command is given has contributed greatly to this kind of response.

She has never, not once been given the come command and allowed to ignore it.

Yet if a rabbit takes off under her nose while she's recalling, she instinctively charges after it. That's why the long-line is so important and why I just can't see the no-correction working on a recall under heavy distraction.

You can imprint your butt off on a pup, but some things are so strongly ingrained (like the instinct to chase a flushed out rabbit) that they override any kind of learned imprinting.

(Btw, slobbering at the prospect of food is an automatic involuntary physiological response, and recalling on command is not, it's a learned response!! Huge difference there).


Don't get me wrong, I'm not and never have been a yank and crank trainer and am 99% motivation. In fact, I hardly ever correct my dogs and have been working my male off leash (he doesn't even have a collar on during training) for most of the past few months without problems.
He's eager to please, he's eager to get the reward so all it takes is for me to lower my voice a bit and say "ah-ah" to let him know that he's making a mistake. The second he gets it right, I give him a high-pitched and happy "Goood!" and he understands instantly.

None of my dogs do obedience because they want to "avoid a correction". Yes, they do know that they will get corrected if they don't comply, but they're always working in very high drive with a huge amount of enthusiasm.

My male was following me around the house with a prong collar in his mouth this morning (after his walk) because he wanted to go out training and I hadn't done any during our walk.

I doubt that anyone who's posting here trains their dogs with pure compulsion anyway

I don't think there's anything wrong with corrections if they're fair, timed correctly and used sparingly enough not to stress out the dog or hurt its temperament in any way.

I'm glad I read this thread though, because it had never occurred to me that the out could be taught motivationally to a dog that's actually on the sleeve.
It's one thing to trade food or a second toy to get back whatever a puppy is carrying around, but I never would've thought it possible with an adult dog on a sleeve until you and David described your method.
It's brilliant and I can't wait to try it out with my dogs

Then again, the drive-compulsion-drive method that Flinks talks about worked wonders on my dogs. Yes, I correct them for not outing, but the instant they drop the prey I immediately put them back into drive for it and they get a lot of excited praise for outing.

My dogs love coming into my arms and getting petted; they don't mouth and they out on a whispered command because they know that the game gets more exciting after an out.

Maybe your way is better (I will try it for sure) but so far I'm ecstatic with the results I've gotten from following Bernhard's training techniques. Anyone who can take an extremely dominant dog like Itor and not only work him as a patrol dog, but take him to the highest level of competition (and make him look like he's having a great time) has more than proven that their methods work!

Ok sorry for rambling Bob.

My point is, while I agree with just about everything that you said, I still doubt that a recall can be achieved with pure motivation under extreme distraction (like prey taking off under a dog's nose).
In such a case, where a dog is simply overpowered by his natural and deep-rooted instincts, I think that it's necessary to have the fear of a correction in his mind.

(Of course there is a huge reward for recalling, especially if a correction was given)

 Quote: Yuko Blum

My point is, while I agree with just about everything that you said, I still doubt that a recall can be achieved with pure motivation under extreme distraction (like prey taking off under a dog's nose).
In such a case, where a dog is simply overpowered by his natural and deep-rooted instincts, I think that it's necessary to have the fear of a correction in his mind.

I know an older gentleman who raises deer dogs. I don't know if you have ever been around deer running beagles before, but running deer is their life. Deep rooted instinct doesn't do justice describing a good deer hunting bloodline of beagle's urge to chase deer.

That said, ALL this guy does to train his dogs to recall is honk the horn to his truck every time he feeds them. Then when he wants to call his dogs off a chase he honks the horn on his truck. Thats it! He has never lost a dog. Keep in mind that this is probably over a mile recall while the dogs are on game. No corrections whatsoever.

With a little creativity, I think it could definately be applied to smaller scaled recalls.

Mike that's a wonderful example of a no-correction recall!

Maybe it's the novelty of flushing a rabbit or deer that gets to most of our high drive dogs. I mean, if they flushed 100 rabbits a day and you never gave them the opportunity to chase any of them - couple that with a super reward for coming back - it might work.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for avoiding corrections if I can. I just don't see my dogs' food drive overpowering their prey drive (except for Moka, but she's not that drivey anyway ).

Last time I was on vacation with Taro I ended up fasting him for two days straight (long story, ran out of food, no stores in the area). I always keep him THIN (you can see ribs on him even though he's 96 lbs) so needless to say he was extremely hungry after not eating for 48 hours. He was staring at me bugging me for food on the second day. I finally managed to get my hands on some (way overpriced) chicken for him and he started gobbling it up like a starving pup.

Well while he was eating, the orbee ball (that I'd stashed on top of the fridge) rolled off the fridge top and fell to the floor. Taro SPAT OUT the mouthful of food he was chewing on and charged towards the ball.

I outted him, put the ball away in a closet and led him back to his food.

He wouldn't have it. Even starving he would rather play with a stupid rubber ball and was just whining and staring at me wanting to go training with the orbee. It took another 15 minutes of me just sitting and ignoring him for him to finally make his way back to the food again.

Even then he kept interrupting his meal to go nudge the closet door with his nose

I can even get Aja to drop her meal and run over to me if I show her the tug... and she's just a puppy!

Maybe this is one of those "it depends on the dog" situation, but I just can't see the prospect of a meal alone producing any reliability in their obedience.

David's comment got me thinking though. Since I CAN duplicate the rabbit scenario with my dogs (seeing as I have at least 10 rabbits at the moment), I'll try getting a purely motivational recall out of my dogs in the face of a rabbit (or multiple rabbits) darting around the yard.

(Now before anyone goes and calls the humane society on me, my rabbits are not afraid of dogs and see them more as playmates. They were born and raised around my lunatic shepherds so they're used to it! Yes they will run from the dogs but aren't scared and will even hop up to the dogs and nudge them to get their attention. It's also pretty easy to round them up once they're done playing... they're really people friendly, lol.)

In the end though, is it really worth it?

As I said, my training is 99% motivational already. The occasional leash pop (I'm talking level 2-3 correction on a prong here, not jerking their head off) to guarantee a reliable recall within one session of training seems like an excellent use of corrections.

Is it really worth spending months and months trying to teach a motivational recall to a dog chasing a rabbit when a quick and painless nick or two from an e-collar could solve the problem from day one?

What's the difference in the end anyway?

Do you think that the dogs who receive an occasional leash pop or e-collar nick are less happy or any less enthusiastic in their work compared to your 100% motivation only dogs?

By the way, I'm a little surprised that Ed hasn't commented yet. His training philosophy specifically points out the crucial need for a correction phase.

I tend to agree with him. Some exercises may never need to see any corrections but I don't want ANY doubt in my dogs' minds that when I call them, they MUST come. Not just if they're hungry, or if they want to play, but that they have no choice but to come.

 Quote: david morris

Acutally I dont really get where you are coming from at this point. Myself and Randy Allen gave you basically the same advice, when I gave it to you I said "this is a starting point." What are you expecting to hear ?
Dog training actually ivolves dog training, you have to actually train the kind of things we are talking about. They dont just happen in one training session. You have to build on things;
A starting point, the dog lets go of helper
Second the dog learns to let go of helper on your command for another bite.
Third, dog lets go of helper, recalls to you and then gets another bite.
Fourth dog lets go of helper comes to you and sometimes gets another bite.
Fifth dog is trained on a regular basis and has a good Out on command.
I really dont get why you cant see this. You have to train it.
Exactly what problems are you having with your K-9. Did the previouse handlers screw him up and now you can not get him to out no matter what you do?

Considering this was directed at me i will go ahead and answer this now, i don't have to much time right now but am planning on coming back and addressing all the good advice on here.

As far as why i cant see it, is because with the majority of the dogs i work with they have high drives and are very stubborn. Your training method seems pretty simple. Same way i would do it. Why i don't (didn't) see it is because i am working with dogs that are already set in there ways. If they know they are not going to get corrected they will continue to bite after you call them out for a longer and longer amount of time. That being said most people have said if the dog was raised with corrections then more then likely that is what the dog will return to in high stress situations. (And yes, most the stubbornness is due to bad training from the handlers)

Do i have a problem with my dog? No. I have fixed all the problems the other handlers have left me. I am asking this question out of personal interest and future reference.

 Quote: bob scott

Hi Mike! I'll try and answer as best I can. Bottom line here is you are the dog's 6th handler. I think that is a huge factor.
I probably wont answer the questions in order. (ADD is a wonderful thing)LOL!

I am not trying to retrain my dog, he is wonderful, just trying to broaden my knowledge is it where. Eh, i got the ADD thing going on too, they give you pills to take but do they expect you to rember the pills!?

 Quote: bob scott

Our outs are trained motivationally. When they out, the get another bite. Simple as that! All the dogs at club have clean outs.
I wont BS you here and say it will be as easy on a "real" bite because I just don't know. I have absolutely no expierience with this. I do BELIEVE it will work though.
I don't believe in tunnel vision. If the dog is engaged with the bad guy and refuses the out, it's a training problem regardless of method.

Oh we use motivational training also i am mainly speaking of no corrections what so ever. And no, you really cant tell until the last second if the dog would give a real bite or not As far as tunnel vision goes, i do believe in it, but i also believe it is the handlers fault for not training through it.

 Quote: bob scott

Getting the bite is a HUGE reward. Why wouldn't the dog comply with obedience if it knows it WILL get the bite.
In our obedience for the bite, the dog has to be in perfect heeling position in order to get the bite. They totally get this!
If they break, the handler gives a "FOOEY" and the helper goes passive. The dog gets nothing. This is all about the initial obedience, not the method.

The most impotent thing in the world to my dog is bite work he litterly lives for it. I am not so much worried about the recall (i don't use this in bite-work) you all have convinced me that it CAN be done now you just need to work on convincing me of reliability in stressful situations and besides there is no corrections how it improves the dog more so then correction based training

 Quote: bob scott

Those that say "My dog is to serious/tough to respond to this method", I say why is it so tough? With a tough dog, of course it going to fight physical correction. That fight is part of what makes them tough. WHY would, even a serious/tough dog refuse a command if it is trained to KNOW good things will happen for compliance. That's a "training/trust your partner" issue. Your supposed to be a team, not a dominant and submissive pair. Pack leadership, human/dog leadership isn't about overpowering the team member.This is my beef with "handler aggressive" dogs. ANY tough/serious dog will respond in kind if it's unfairly corrected, heavy handed corrected, or it just, plain and simple, is a dog with an unsound temperment.

I got no problem with a dog coming up leash on a handler who overly corrects the dog. All the dog is doing is correcting the handler.

 Quote: bob scott

I've been told that my own dog would be a nasty, snarling beast if trained with heavy compulsion. As it is, he's a perfect sweetheart (with me LOL!)
From day one he didn't need much of a reason to get nasty with the helpers. He KNOWS he's gonna get the bite if he pays attention to me. That's a training/trust issue, not a training method.

Don't get me wrong, i am not a fan or user of heavy compulsion, i use motivational training and correction training it just depends on how my dog is acting and the situation.

 Quote: bob scott

I wont sit here and try and change peoples minds about how great motivational training is. All good training methods work. Any good trainer should be able to use any method to get results. Positive or compulsion. It's about the abilities of the trainer and the dog, not the method. I just choose to train with a method that creats a dog that will work to get something it wants, not a dog that works to avoid something it dislikes.
Again, I'm not trying to change the world. I'm just trying to explain what I do in training.

Cant argue with anything you said here And you do a good job of explaining how you train.

I think we are all pretty much in agreement.

PP training can work for some things with many dogs. However Recall under heavy distraction is very hard to obtain with PP methods unless you started with a puppy and did everything correctly. Mileage may vary there also.

I wasn't about to get rid of my Dogtra ECollars anyways.

Well I am glad to hear that you are not having problems with your dog. If you are trying to solve the problems of the other handlers then you do have your job cut out for you because each dog and handler is different.
The method I described( in its simplest form )was one way I solved the problems on some dogs in the past,( police k-9s that were actively on the street.)
All dogs are different. What you are trying to overcome is bad training built in to the dog by the way of a literal fight or struggle to get the dog to out.That fight is what is stressfull and what the dog fights against and the cycle continues as you know. The dog were not born to ignore the out command.
You are searching for away to avoid the fight. That would mean you have to find away to make "the dog" out for a reason.
I have found it as easy as recalling the dog and just avoiding the whole out and the fight that comes with it.. Sometimes that actually works.
Another thing to think about is what is the dog after. Is it the sleeve or the man. If its the sleeve or the equipment then you can back track and reprogram the dog to focus on the man and not the equipment. Once that is straight in the dogs head that can help with the out.
If the "out" has become a fight you can be creative and find ways to short cicuit that fight and get what you are wanting.

Dave,
On side note, have you ever had any luck retraining (say a difficult out) in any method of your choice but using a different unknown command in the retraining? IE, reteach the out using the word couch. Hummm, sounds too much like out huh. How about whistling the 'The Yellow Rose Of Texas'
Any way you get what I'm saying. Any luck with that kind technique?

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong
Randy

No I havent ever changed the word. But I ve heard of people doing that to try and remove the association with the history of the command. It sounds like a good enough idea though. I have talked to people that have done it. But you going to a recall instead of the out is a similar thing. The dog doesnt associate the recall command with the fight normaly involved with the out command. Ofcourse Im talking about police k-9s. That wouldnt be very useful in sport work.