Quote: carol boche

General Question:
Isn't easy to give the dog too much when they do "produce" their own C as well?

It's easily excreted.

In fact, in humans, some people up their intake until it triggers a little diarrhea, then back off a bit and take that as their "useable" dosage.

 Quote: connie sutherland

 Quote: carol boche

General Question:
Isn't easy to give the dog too much when they do "produce" their own C as well?

It's easily excreted.

In fact, in humans, some people up their intake until it triggers a little diarrhea, then back off a bit and take that as their "useable" dosage.

Hmmmmmm, sounds....well.....uncomfortable...

I will definitely be doing some searching on this as I know this has been discussed.

Thanks guys, this is what I like........learning something.

My vet said to watch the added C. Even though the extra can be processed out he thinks it is hard on the kidneys. Especially in cats he has seen crystals form.
Dogs only need extra C during times of stress or illness so I am not sure I see the benefit of adding it DAILY.

Michelle, I've had vets recommend vit c to cats to prevent crystals(struvite) after urinalysis. This would be after confirming there was no bacterial infection. Vit c acidifies the urine which helps with struvite crystals, its the calcium oxalate buggers that will get you but there are more factors than just vit c.

I know generic and human forms of vit c and ester C contain calcium, which is the main concern when looking into calcium oxalate crystals. Suppliments given need to be tailored to the individual animal based on what they are fed and what is going on at the time. The calcium content is also what makes me only consider Prevention. I have to do more looking into it.

The magnesium, phosphorous/phosphates, calcium, and ash levels need to be watched, most especially if you give suppliments.

Crystals:
( http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1741 )
"In older times (20 years or so ago), cats virtually never developed calcium oxalate bladder stones. Cat bladder stones could reliably be assumed to be made of struvite (a matrix of ammonium-magnesium-phosphate). In those days, feline lower urinary tract symptoms were generally caused by struvite crystals in urine (or at least this was the assumption). Also in those days, feline lower urinary tract symptoms were extremely common. The pet food industry responded by acidifying cat foods to prevent the development of crystals. In a way it worked. Feline lower urinary tract symptoms declined. Male cats with struvite urinary blockages became far less common. The trade off was that calcium oxalate bladder stones began to develop. Acidifying the body leads to an acid urine pH and more calcium loss into the urine, both factors in the development of a calcium oxalate stone. Currently most bladder stones formed by cats are calcium oxalate stones."

and for dogs:
( http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/bladder-stones-crystals/ )
"Alkaline pH and struvite crystals are not caused by a diet of alkaline foods; they are usually caused by bladder infections. Therefore, trying to make the urine more acidic will not get rid of the infection. Alkaline pH can also be normal, as pH can vary a great deal even in the same dog at different times of the day, and also by the way the urine was captured and handled before testing.
If your dog has struvite bladder stones, then acidifying the diet, along with treating the infection, can help dissolve the stones. Ascorbic acid (a form of vitamin C), and distilled water can help with this. , Acidic foods include chicken, beef, eggs, fish, pork, cottage cheese, yogurt, rice (brown and white), beans, nuts and all seafood. "
....

calcium/oxalate:
"Calcium Oxalate crystals can also be found in a healthy dog, but are more prone to develop into stones in some dogs. The pH in dogs with these types of crystals is usually acidic or neutral. It is thought that some dogs that are more prone to these types of stones have an inherited weakness that prevents them from forming nephrocalein, which prevents calcium oxalate stone formation. While these stones are mostly treated by surgically removing them, there has been some success with reducing the oxalate rich foods in the diet and working to alkalize the urine pH.
Alkalizing foods include apples, bananas, cabbage, broccoli, beans, potatoes, pumpkin, millet, honey, alfalfa, non-distilled vinegar (organic apple cider vinegar), squash and most fruit and most vegetables.
High oxalate foods to avoid include beet greens, rhubarb, spinach, beets, raw endive, dandelion greens, okra, kale and sweet potatoes. "

Regarding nephrocalcin I have read and heard in several places that the lack or under production of it is seen in every case of calcium oxalate stones. An animal being susceptible to these stones is said to often be a hereditary problem and mostly affects male dogs. It is said that adding B vitamins.. B6 more specifically I think will help decrease oxalate formation. But I'm not sure on that. You will notice I put 'it is said' a lot and that is because I personally have no proof one way or another, not being a vet.

I'm sure if I have forgotten anything then Connie will add some info or correct me, I do believe she knows far more than I do!

Hope this helps.

Edited by Jennifer Marshal (02/19/2008 04:56 PM)
Edit reason: spelling

Carol, do you supplement the innova?

kelp? alfalfa? vit e? salmon oil?

 Quote: stacy mcgrogan

Carol, do you supplement the innova?

kelp? alfalfa? vit e? salmon oil?

I feed all raw now, but when I did feed kibble I supplemented with salmon oil and vitamin E.

thanks, the whole feeding thing is driving me crazy.

Nah, don't let it do that. It really is easy, especially when researched first.

Did you see the links I provided to you in another post? The article on feeding raw and the sample menus?

I am sure you will do GREAT and I have always thought that if you just use the basic supplements at first you will be fine. Once you get the "hang of it" then you can go and research anything you think you may want to add.

Carol, I have another one for you. I know dogs do not need grain. The evo (grain free) looks like a good kibble, but it is very high in protein ( 40% or so), I heard that a high protein is not good for growing puppies. Everyone I talk to says that it is a NO NO for growing pups. I breed labs and am concerned about hips. Any thought?

I always used plain old Innova Adult in the green bag. I guess I don't know why I never used EVO, other than I thought it was too high in protein.
I know people who use it and have used it in the past and they do fine on it though.

I like to grow my puppies as slow as I can and I had no problem with using the regular Innova. Which has brown rice I know.