Quote: Connie Sutherland

You mentioned a park. Can that happen more often than weekly? And what else is there? Where do you grocery shop? Where do you buy gasoline? Newspapers? Dogfood?

Like I mentioned...we live a long way from most everything and with fuel prices so high we severely limit our trips. Once a week is the most I go anywhere and sometimes it is 2 weeks before I go out. I mentioned that I can take him with me to the store and walk him in the parking lot. Take him out at the gas station when I fuel up...

I understand that he needs exposure, but we can't afford (money wise) to go out when not necessary.

The only other thing I can think of as a way to help socialize him is to walk off our property about a mile to where there are other houses - I haven't seen any other dogs, though, I can do that nearly every day. I usually just walk him on our trails in our woods, but I would be willing to do something different to help Rocky.

I've lived in rural areas and off-leash dogs, or even packs of dogs can be a big problem. You might want to scout out any neighborhood with houses before going out and walking Rocky there. Otherwise, you could end up with a big problem (dog fight or at the very least, more reactivity to dogs), even if Rocky is 100% behaving himself.

It's hard to drive off a pack of farm dogs with a stick, and there's no reason to put yourself and Rocky (or any kids that might be along with you) in that situation.

Thanks for the warning. My husband and I walk together and we have never seen any dogs out and about...in the 2 years that we have lived here...he drives down both of the roads nearly every day on his 4 wheeler to check our property lines and we have walked them many times and haven't seen dogs there - except for 1, now that I think of it who is confined to the porch and there is no way off of it - yes, he "could" jump it, but he seems pretty harmless and they are back off the road. So, I really don't think that will be a problem.

Well, we went for our walk...Rocky didn't even pay attention to the other dogs...I had him on a long line so he wouldn't feel that he needed to protect me and so I could see him being himself and there happened to be 2 dogs...a husky on the porch - that he can't get off of and a boxer tied out in the yard.

Rocky never once got riled and I even stopped in the middle of the road (no traffic, of course) and did some obedience commands with him and he did them flawlessly.

Rocky is letting you know what his comfort zone is, in this particular situation. It's great that he has one!

One idea I had, that might help with your situation, where you can't easily replicate the kinds of stresses Rocky is going to be under at rare times. If you taught him a default behaviour that you get him to do - not because there is a specific stimulus (ie. dog, or unknown human), but because he was going into an aroused state - kind of a bio-feedback approach rather than specific stimulus - then, whatever Rocky is facing: provocation from the donkey, farm animals, kids screaming, whatever - he has learned a default behaviour that comes into play.

For example, I have three defaults that I am working with Jethro on, depending on the level of surprise and reaction I am dealing with.

Level 1 is that he is aware of something but it isn't upsetting him. I say, Look at That! and click. He looks back at me at the sound of the click. He makes eye contact with me, I drop a treat in his mouth. In some situations, I will get him to sit, and we will go through this sequence a number of times until he loses interest and we can move on. He is getting clicked and treated for not going into a full blown reaction, and for staying connected to me, as we investigate our environment together.

Level 2 is when he has become over interested in something but is not having a full reaction. For those ones it is Sit, Down, Watch, Wait ... and then I will Click and treat his calm demeanor. Once again, he is not being removed from the situation, he is comfortable enough to let whatever it is happen and maintain connection with me.

Level 3 is when he has very quickly gone into full blown reaction and I just have to turn him around and get him back into his comfort zone. This usually happens because of handler error: I misjudged what he could handle and whatever it was got too close for his comfort.

He is starting to offer a default Sit when something is interesting him. He is now going into Downs quite readily, no matter where we are. He is definitely having less overall reactivity to things, although this is variable depending on many factors.

Maybe you can prep Rocky for over stimulation so that when the events take place, you have a plan of action to help get back to his equilibrium.

Jenny, thanks, I like being pro-active, but I need help thinking ahead. I will try this technique. Actually, I did try this technique tonight before I finished writing this post. We came home from our walk and since it was almost dark, Rocky walked up on a cow without seeing her (she is black and was standing in a corner as he jumped over the cattle guard). He startled and then lunged at her...I immediately said, "Rocky, sit." He did. Then I said, "Here." He immediately followed me to the yard without another glance at the cow.

We went for a walk again today around other dogs - there was a "pack" of beagles my husband had been around and Rocky did fine. (More about this at the bottom.)

Before we left for that walk I decided to walk Rocky up to some yearling calves - I knew he wouldn't hurt them and they couldn't/wouldn't hurt him. (Either way, neither my husband nor I would let either one hurt the other). So, I put him on my 20 foot line and walked up to a steer - alone/by himself...Rocky jumped at him and then immediately withdrew (he was afraid of the steer), Rocky crouched down (in a playful/shy manner) and looked at the calf a little better, then jumped at him again and then immediately withdrew again (the steer just stood there) ...he never got closer than a foot to the calf. Then Rocky turned and walked away. I took him to another calf and he walked away from her (as if he was intimidated), but why wouldn't he be? In the yard when the cattle come to the fence Rocky is head level with them, but out on even ground he is much smaller. Now, would he be perfectly fine around calves without supervision??? No, but it is interesting to me that he is afraid of them after charging them at the fence. To him the fence gives him "power."

Now, for the walk and the other dogs. They saw Rocky and were afraid of him. He did great on the long line and was in the middle of the road, so it wasn't like he was in their yard...they came charging out into the road and when they saw Rocky they took off into the woods, yelping. He wanted to follow them...tail wagging and being friendly.

So, I guess my question would change to, "Is he sensing my feelings about being around people and other animals?" I am more "timid" around others, including family members and since he was on a short leash, maybe he was picking up on that? Maybe he was trying to protect me from people I don't feel comfortable around? On the long line, I don't have him so close to me, so he felt more free to be himself?


Maybe I was making things "tense" in Florida bec I didn't know how he would react and didn't want anyone to get bit, so he was acting like I was feeling...my parents didn't help any with that bec they kept making comments like, "If Rocky bites anyone or attacks another dog you WILL have a law suit. This is a leash law area and no one observes it except you, but you will still be at fault bec you have a GSD."

Comments anyone?????

I have just a minute, but I feel like I have to try this one more time: He is NOT being protective of you in the situations you describe. He is stressed, he is reactive; he is not protecting you. It's so counterproductive to keep saying and thinking that. "So, I guess my question would change to, "Is he sensing my feelings about being around people and other animals?" I am more "timid" around others, including family members and since he was on a short leash, maybe he was picking up on that? Maybe he was trying to protect me from people I don't feel comfortable around? On the long line, I don't have him so close to me, so he felt more free to be himself? "

Yes, you can and probably do send your own negativity right down the leash. This is part of his not perceiving a pack leader/protector and instead perceiving the need to defend himself (and we can't see him, but with some dogs, they are resource-guarding when their owners romanticize it into "protecting me" -- the dog is telling another dog or a human "Don't touch my stuff -- that's mine.")

Whew. I really am sorry if that's blunt, but I think that was my third or fourth effort. Honestly, nothing you have described is your dog "protecting you."

I also want to explain briefly that "tail wagging" does not necessarily mean "being friendly." I wish we had video.


"Comments anyone????? "

Yes! This is great: "We came home from our walk and since it was almost dark, Rocky walked up on a cow without seeing her (she is black and was standing in a corner as he jumped over the cattle guard). He startled and then lunged at her...I immediately said, "Rocky, sit." He did. Then I said, "Here." He immediately followed me to the yard without another glance at the cow."


But the dog needs socializing around human strangers. The dog needs the regular frequent desensitizing work described here. So far, my perception has been that you can't do it, that you never leave home (or almost never leave) and that almost no one comes to your home. In this situation, Al's comment about not taking the dog anywhere in public without a muzzle, IMO, is absolutely true. (And this can be done and is done by many people.)

JMO. I hope that a better plan suggests itself, but I just want to be really clear that a dog who is comfortable and dependably calm around strangers doesn't /can't happen in isolation.


eta
Not taking ANYthing away from the work you have begun, BTW!


Edited by Connie Sutherland (03/29/2011 04:06 PM)
Edit reason: eta

"
Before we left for that walk I decided to walk Rocky up to some yearling calves - I knew he wouldn't hurt them and they couldn't/wouldn't hurt him. (Either way, neither my husband nor I would let either one hurt the other). So, I put him on my 20 foot line and walked up to a steer - alone/by himself...Rocky jumped at him and then immediately withdrew (he was afraid of the steer), Rocky crouched down (in a playful/shy manner) and looked at the calf a little better, then jumped at him again and then immediately withdrew again (the steer just stood there) ...he never got closer than a foot to the calf. Then Rocky turned and walked away. I took him to another calf and he walked away from her (as if he was intimidated),"

Please don't put Rocky in situations where he is going to be over-stimulated. When he is barking and lunging that reinforces the behaviour, it doesn't help him learn a new strategy for dealing with unknown situations. Why would you be walking him up to a calf? Don't you want him to leave the livestock alone? Then teach him to be disinterested, not overly interested and lunging at it. You don't want him in situations where there is anxiety or stress. It isn't about fear per se, it is about over-excitement and acting on that.

"Now, for the walk and the other dogs. They saw Rocky and were afraid of him. He did great on the long line and was in the middle of the road, so it wasn't like he was in their yard...they came charging out into the road and when they saw Rocky they took off into the woods, yelping. He wanted to follow them...tail wagging and being friendly."

I would interpret this as dominance display. From everything you have said about Rocky, being friendly to strangers, unknown dogs or livestock is not in his repetoire. What stopped him from following? Did he stop himself? Or did you stop him with the drag line?

 Quote: connie sutherland

He is NOT being protective of you in the situations you describe. He is stressed, he is reactive; he is not protecting you. It's so counterproductive to keep saying and thinking that.

Maybe I missed something, but I don't think you ever described why he is not being protective...***asked in a truly inquiring way*** how do you know? How can you tell when a dog is protective or not?

 Quote: connie sutherland

This is part of his not perceiving a pack leader/protector and instead perceiving the need to defend himself.

What are the characteristics of him perceiving a pack leader? What are the characteristics of a pack leader? Why do you say he does not perceive me as his pack leader?

 Quote: connie sutherland

I also want to explain briefly that "tail wagging" does not necessarily mean "being friendly." I wish we had video.

No, but in this case, I know my dog and he was in a playful, sporty mood.

i haven't had a chance to read all the other replies..BUT if he is not a sports dog I would look into Ceasar Milan. his breed of choice is rotties.
other than that your "soothing" is acctually encouraging him. He feeds off of your "energy". some folks call it energy some folks are more scientifc. Dogs sence of smelli s VERY stong and the second you become nervous, scared, angry or frustrated you dog pics up on those scents or your body language and a combo of both. Strong breeds react in the same way. Esspecially at his age. He is reaching full menal maturety and is reacting as he was bred to do. Yes He does need socializing. not by tons of people petting him but by decensitizing him. get his attention when there are other peopel. take him to a park a few times a week with his favorite toy or food and work on obedience. and make new places fun. that will calm both of you down. you already have a pre concieved notion that because he was never brought around many people or places that he is going to have a bad reaction. from what i read you will watch every person and wonder what is going to happen if they get too close or how your dog is going to react. Your dog picks up on that quickly. He will do the same thing. he will get focused on the people and because he doesn't know any better will become weary of them..because YOU are wary of them. His reaction of "protection" is because he is both scared of the new situation..and because he thinks it's his job. Because they make you worried..they make him worried. he needs to realize if there is a reaction with aggression it will not be rewarded by soothing or babying him. He needs to be corrected for aggressive behavior towards inocent by standers. I have a puppy (super cute one at that) and I tell ALL people NOT TO TOUCH. not to come close at all. people don't understand that their body language can casue a weak nerved dog or puppy to become scared which can easily turn into aggression. esspecially while on a leash and there is no way to escape the scary person. Make you dog understand that you will be protecting HIM from strange people and he will not feel the need to be in front of you causeing the scary people to back up. he should have been socialized as a puppy Especially as a pup and also his breed. His breed is notorious guardians of their family. ANY AND ALL STRANGE THINGS are to be seen as possible enemies. Until he realizes that they are just people and not a threat, he will continue this behavior. Not only is he a law suit waiting to happen..but you are on the loseing end of the law suit if he does get anyone. It is a very serious liability you have on your hand. But it's not a losing battle. You can over come this behavior. Social dogs don't mean they run up to everyone and give them kisses. socialiazed dogs just don't see people and places as possible threats. They see them as backround, not important, just moving objects that have absolutly NO meaning unless you specifically say they have some sort of meaning. It's going to be okay..just keep researching info on training..you have a great place here with TONS of knowledge. Pick one or two folks that are consistant in their phylosophy (horrible speller sorry) and PM them. Get their advice..take your time..and all will be well and don't even think of giving up. time, training, love, and pacience...you'll get it!
Oh and another thing to think about. If you were the pack leader..he wouldn't react to anything or anyone with out your ok. because the pack leader decides when to eat, hunt, protect, fight ect. ABSOLUTELY NO ONE ELSE in the pack gets to choose that. You may be HIS female counter part leader..but He does NOT see you as his leader if he is deciding what to do and when. I am not trying to be rude at all. I just know i thought i was my st's leader...and i was wrong. and when i realized it I worked on regaining my leadership role. and i'm back on top again! but don't even get me started on my puppy. that's a whole nother battle.