Kent:

I tried to explain to you that the remarks that were made to you were in no way personal. Know nothing about war or war dogs. Do know a little about sport dogs. An untitled dog that was picked and imprinted by a knowledgeable sport trainer is a very good candidate to be selected tested for a PSD or PPD. Why? Because he or she would choose a dog that had moderate prey drive to relive stress, moderate defense drive with a genetic capability to develop that into fight drive, confident temperament with moderate(some would call it a bit of sharpness) to strong nerves. Now once the training progress into sport titling the potential is reduced exponentially. What a kong has to do with any of this is mind boggling? Show a kong to Ed dog Otis when you brake into his office at night.

Vince,

Thank you. I entend to become more detailed when I have some time. As many are, I have constraints of time. I have no doubt Ed may have many dogs that are defensive and would protect. The main point I wanted to make was that sport techniques and terminology has migrated into the working world. Schutzhund today in no way resembles what it was in 1920. Those dogs in 1920 were thinkers. Look in the book at what they could do. So much has been lost. To use sport terminology, dogs are being pred with such high "prey drives" they are non- functional. I have witnessed sport dogs do things out of sheer repitition. The thinking is gone. The dog goes to the wrong blind. It was practiced that way but the helper is not even there. So many of these dogs are so hyper, they can't even live in the home of their owners. They go from kennel to groomed field. I think a working dog should be calm, focused, defensive when needed, able to live in my home, play with my kids, and be as hot as needed against an intruder. I see no need for props such as balls and rags. I had a police handler friend recently tell me he would never deploy his PSD if there was someone between him and the target. The dog would bite anyone (including other officers) in the way. Now, how have we gotten here? Simple, so many of these PSD's are from sport lines. High prey drive to use the sport term.

I agree that not all of the dogs of the past were great. Some good, some bad. But there were some that were very, very elite. The German Military breeders of the 1930's & 1940's bred dogs that could be released in waves of hundreds at the enemy. In France in 1940 they attacked French soldiers on contact. They joined up with any German soldier they met, even if they did not know him. How? By the smell of the uniforms. Is does not matter in 2001 if someone likes the British, Germans, Russians or whoever of that time. I want to communicate those dogs existed then and there are some in existance now that can think, work and function the same as the German dogs of the war years.
I have no more time now. And I intend to read Catherine's postings. What I see so far seems in line with what I know to be true. - Kent

Kent,
As someone who has and currently is working and training military dogs for nearly 40 years,I am interested to know were you have obtained all this information,as I have not come across one country that applies any secret to the training of normal military dogs.There is some work going on now for special forces operations which is classified,but most of the German information from the 30s and 40s is a matter of public record and whilst some of the dogs were bitches,from the pictures I have seen,most certainly were not.
If the bitches are so good,why are they so rarely used by both police and military even as patrol dogs and I am not refering just to GSDs.
I would also point out that most military are going away from GSDs in favour of other breeds for a variety of reasons.
Whilst I have no wish to critisise your theory,please back it up with hard evidence.

Kent,

You are confusing working and sport dogs. Unless you have a working dog doing sport, it will go straight for the decoy. We do our training for home protection and they only care where the bad guy is. If they don't know the will search, but when they find the bad guy it is straight to it.

Good working dogs are hard to find. I have also seen too many dogs with sky high prey drive. Those dogs tend to be limited primarily to a few breeds. One reason I don't have those breeds. I have come to believe that a balanced dog is often more nurture than nature. Dogs will react to expectations, if you keep then with you they will learn and set their temperament to match. There is a component of genetics involved, but there is a lot that can be done with it.

Most of what you are talking about a training issues. Many of these behaviors from recognizing and accepting certain people to targeting people engaging in specific behavior can be easily trained. The problem is so few people recognize good dogs or can train them. Our local PD has a problem with their dogs. If the handler goes down the dogs won't work for anybody else. They have to take a sleeve and drag the dog in to a car and close the doors around them. This is crazy. It would be so easy to train 2-3 other better methods of doing this that would work better.

I don't think there is any great seceret in much of this. The big problem is anybody can claim to be a trainer and if someone will pay them they are a trainer. Another problem is that many good trainers are just that, good dog trainers. They are often terrible with people. Most dog "training" is teaching the owner not the dog.

Nostalgia is a great thing, but anectdotal information from 30-40 years ago isn't much help. Much of this type of information is enhanced as it goes along. Having trained dogs for a long time I can tell you the well trained dogs I see now are better than the well trained dogs I saw 20 years ago. I would hope that is the case, we should get better at this with experience.

Kent you claim;
'The German Military breeders of the 1930's & 1940's bred dogs that could be released in waves of hundreds at the enemy. In France in 1940 they attacked French soldiers on contact'.
I wont question some of your other claims as I do not have explicit experience or knowledge to refute them. Although when I read about the hundreds of dogs assault stuff it makes me wonder....

The 'canine wave assualt' claim is utter fantasy land stuff. Stock dog workers have a saying in this country 1 dog is one dog, 2 dogs is 2 dogs, three dogs is no dogs. Dogs running in large groups seem to forget all about their human handler and begin to tune into each other and behave according to their wild basic instincts. Maybe the germans breed that out of their dogs, I doubt it.

I presume that if the germans planed to deploy dogs in their hundreds as you claim then it would be aginst large groups of troops or fortifications? armed troops with belt fed weapons? defensive grenades? maybe artillery support? good luck to your dogs.

Mr. Powning, I like some others thought you were coming out of left field entirely (Australia? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> ) when you first started posting on this board. But I must say that you have become a breath of fresh air. I for one am getting a little tired of all this Teutonic mysticism vis-a-vis the training of dogs. What kind of mind does it take to buy into this kind of tripe? Hitler--and all of his dog trainers--and all of his theories--can burn in hell forever as far as I'm concerned.

Thank you again.

Pete Felknor

Kent:

The topics you speak of have been gone over time and time again in the past threads. You seem to have some experience with working dogs so I recommend reading some past threads and then bringing your comments back to the group for discussion. I can’t even begin to start this discussion until you have an understanding of the difference between defense and fight drive (one if driven by fear and the other by forward aggression). Trust me if you broke into Ed’s office at night Otis would not be showing you defense.

Kent,
I'd be interested if you could cite your sources of information that your opinions are based upon. I'd be more than happy to look at anything that you can direct me to so I can make up my own mind.....

Kent wrote:

"As for the comment about having a direct pipeline to a former S.S. Officer or one of his diciples, how did you know?"

How did I know? Well, I have my own intelligence sources...

No, seriously, as good as it sounds, I cannot lie. I do, however, have an uncanny ability to read between the lines. So when I read "The German Shepherd Dog in word and picture" I used my special talents and as a result am quite privy to all the untold secrets.

Send me your dog and in three months I will turn her into Blondie. Although I do not have the resources of the elite nazi K9 forces to test your dog's ability to slash, tear and bleed unprotected targets to death (they are so hard to come by these days), you will just have to take my word for it.

Or you can purchase a finished dog from me -- it will not come with a pedigree, I like to throw in a little bit of this and a little bit of that to make them look more "real". Don't tell anyone, but I am currently introducing pit bulls into my breeding program (my personal touch <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) -- a little "gameness" would not hurt.

I do not screen my potential clients: no training experience? no training support? -- not a problem.

I take cash and major credit cards only.

P.S. I also sell snake oil.


Kent,

Jokes aside, we DO have some things in common -- we love dogs and work in the insurance business (for me -- a necessary evil :rolleyes: ). But please, enough lessons in history and military intelligence machinations -- this is a forum for dog training: theory and practice. Your philosophy is, as stated more than once: "You can't change what is." OK, I'll pretend to understand that. But what about practice?

And please, let's not go into environmental stuff -- we've already covered the subject -- fire, smoke and live ammo. It was fascinating while it lasted. And let's not concentrate on multiple dog deployment -- you wouldn't believe the mess I got myself into last time I deployed 100 dogs. Brendan is right -- 100 dogs is no dogs at all <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> . What I am particularly interested in is: how do you start a 10-12 wk puppy in protection if you don't believe in prey drive?

Let's start with this, one step at a time. Maybe the problem is that you presented us with so much new and interesting information, that my mind, in particular, is just not capable to absorb it all at once.

Renee,

OK, you asked "how do you start a 10-12 week puppy in protection if you don't believe in prey drive?"

Well, first I will try to better define some things previously said. I do believe some dogs are driven. We can put any label on it we want, "prey" drive, "ball drive", "hot for the rag", etc. The driven dogs I am refering to are those bred over generations to be this way. I have a close local friend here in NC that says his dogs have "monster prey drive". To me, they are just super hyper. Yes, they love to chase the ball, rag, kong, etc. There was a time I would help him get his pups started by tying a rag on the end of a 4' nylon cord tied to a sawed off broom handle. I would drag and whip the rag around and the whole litter of the little dudes would scramble all over each other to get at it. I did everything I could in the conventional stable to "build" this "prey drive". I never corrected a pup for biting at me, nipping me, etc. As they grew I would use the tug. I have been down this route. There was one pup I loved, she was a Malinois/Dutch Shepherd cross. Tons of "prey" drive. But, she was so hyper, I could not keep her in my home. So in this context, yes, I do believe in "prey" drive. Those dogs that are bred to be hyper for an item, etc. --- But, working breeds were not always this way. From experience, I firmly do not believe this is the best route to obtain a great working dog. I have tried this route. Now, I have been criticized for looking to the past. Is the past always better? NO. I'm no fool. There are many things about our time that are good. But not all. I have to use the past as a reference, Why? - because in today's world what I have found in practical application to be true is so rare. So please, abide with me. I am using my knowledge of the past to help paint the picture of of what I am trying to convey. To use the analogy of the German Farmer in 1912. I use this because I love the GSD and know what it once was, and could be again. This dog (to use a sport term again) was "balanced in its drives". I simply feel the dog was not hyper. It was a working dog, bonded to it's handler/owner. I firmly do not believe a dog is a driven animal. It is a thinking animal. Now, a sporting bred dog is a "driven" animal.

I will use my GSD pup, Umsa, as an example. She is not driven. Would she play ball, kong, or rag with me if I introduced her to it? . Absolutely. Will I - NO. I do not want her oriented on that. I want her oriented on ME. Umsa lives in my home. She plays with my son. It she "hot"? - Absolutely. Is she aggressive or vicious? - NO.

I next think I need to clarify something. When I use the term "defensive" I just mean serious. If you want to think in terms of drives, think of it as "serious" drive. Fight or flight. This is what a dog in a survival situation would do. Fight or flight. I think we have a lot of common ground here. Time is constraining me, for now I will say this: In protection work, the dog should be serious. In a real confrontation, a dog is in fight/flight mode anyway. That is natural for a dog. Survival is fight or flight. However, there is no fear in a dog. Think of the lion in the wild. No fear, but if he thinks he can't win, he will flee. On another day that same lion might choose to fight. It is the same for a dog in protection. In real life against a real attacker a dog will be serious. Fight or flight. I call this Defense. Call it Serious drive if you want to . Or defense drive. -- Now, if trained the way I will descibe below, the dog will choose to fight rather than flee. The dog chooses to protect the handler. The bond is important. The handler is worth defending to the dog. Now how does prey drive fit in here? It does not. Yes, a dog can be trained in prey. I've done it. But, when it is real, defense will kick in. Any dog, I mean, any dog will fight or flee if it's life is on the line and it knows it's real. Prey drive goes out the window. Now it is for real, life or death. Prey has no place here. -- What is not achieved when you train in prey is that bond to the handler. The toy, kong, etc. "prey item" I've heard it called, this just gets in the way. The toy is a prop. It gets in way of the bond. In a real altercation, I want my dog to choose fight rather than flight. ...in a case of fight/flight in real life, a sport dog's "prey" drives are not a factor...Defense is, fight/flight is, and the sport dog will break (choose flight) in a real altercation. If a sporting dog does fight in a real situation, it is not in prey. It is in defense drive, fight drive, what ever label you want to hang on it. Call it fight drive if you want. The point is it's real, the dog knows it is real. The handler needs to be worth defending to the dog. OK, so if a dog needs to be in serious fight or flight and not prey in a real life event, then we need to train in defense or serious drive. Now think of this, I'm at a Schutzhund trial. I'm the helper. The dog closes with me. I have a club or wrench. I really go at the dog. Trying to hurt it, trying to kill it. Prey drive goes out the window. It's real now. That dog will either fight me or run. Defense drive. Survival. There will be no full mouth grip. Canines will be used, enameled daggers, the dog will sink them, release, back off, come in when there is a chance. Multiple target. Bleed me out. This is what I mean by serious drive. I firmly believe most Schutzhund dogs would flee in this scenario. If one chose to defend it's handler and really fight me, I might consider that dog. -- A pup can be trained in serious drive from the beginning.

To answer your question: How do you start a young pup if you don't use "prey" drive. OK, -- you start by working through applied stress. This builds a dog and a handler. Agility is a great starter. You start out with simple things at six weeks old. A frames, walk overs, etc. come later. You build the confidence and bond by working through things together. Follow common sense. Do age appropriate things. A young pup you take over a pile of logs as an example. Praise the pup for her accomplishment. Increase the difficulty as she grows.

You also start a young pup out on scent work. At seven weeks Umsa would find my son. I would hold her, allow him to go hide. I would release her and use the command "seek". When she found him, he would praise with "good seek". You start short and simple and build up to longer tracks on lead using items.

As far as aggitation goes, bitework, three month old malinios pups often will hang off a bite suit. You start simple. The helper aggitates the pup, then backs off. Come in, make eye with the pup, when the pup visually confronts, you back off. You praise the pup for barking out and visually confronting the helper. You have to carefully watch the eyes. You will see the point when the pup visually confronts. In the beginning, the pup may go into avoidance, which is a form of flight. If the pup turns aside, or goes into avoidance, you say nothing. Praise the pup when it barks out and and confronts the helper. There is no touch by the helper in the beginning. Let the pup win - the helper backs off. Puppy wins. You praise.

a final thing: Also, high "prey" dogs are hard to control. Which in my opinion may be why some of them are hard to make working dogs, if not impossible. Also, we have to keep in mind the GSD is a "well rounded dog." It is not the hardest biter, the fastest on foot, the most agile. It is a very
intelligent, utility dog. Overall, it can do it all, but not necessarily be the top in each area. The GSD isn't "specialized" so to say. It once was more so, and can be again. I am out of time. - Kent