>>Brigita: your posts are great, not saying others' arent, because they are, but yours are very helpful to me and make alot of sense. You seem to know what you are talking about and understand this behavior.

Thank you Howard. I've had to understand this behavior as I have 2 males which are socially aggressive and to understand and train them I HAD to understand what I was dealing with. The approach is entirely different than that of a sport dog. Wouldn't trade/sell them for anything. Invaluable as breeding dogs and priceless as working dogs but man what a responsibility and a lot of work! But they taught me more about behavior than all the dogs put together that I've trained and lived with. To understand them is to appreciate them. Their intensity and focus is unsurpassable as is their work 'ethic'. It's always 100%. I've had both injured and continue to fight on 3 legs and when younger (before extensive control was incorporated), even though injured; had to be 'dragged' back to the vehicle as all they wanted was to re-engage and finish the 'job'...No thought to injury or pain.

>>I also agree that to get some aggression you have to breed dogs with alot.

I agree as do the European breeders whom I've spoken with and visited. As one world renown Mal breeder/judge/competitor said: "The sire is extreme and serious and will 'battle' to the end...difficult, tiring, and dangerous dog to work and certainly no fun--not for the handler or for the decoy or anyone else who might get in the way...but this is the dog for breeding as he will never score high points but will produce those who can...we don't breed to anything less...Such a dog can produce street or sport dogs depending on the female (and later the training) but either way you are going to get aggression in the progeny--but to different levels...If such a dog can produce good working progeny...then he is a 'good' dog; but if he can produce himself or better yet outproduce himself, then he is a 'great' dog..."

Anyways just thought you might find this interesting. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Take care.

Brigita

>>Deanna is also right in saying that these types of dogs are always turned on. It is in their nature to attack any kind of threat, not just the ones that were trained for.

Absolutely. They don't have an 'off' switch...The best you'll get is a 'pause' switch lol.

Training only supports these dogs' already 'expectant' nature. They carry their genetics and training where ever they go...They apply their training seriously and carry it off the field. These dogs are always 'working'. Even without training for every possible scenario one could think of...when something unexpected occurs, these dogs will follow through and keep going as it's in their nature to defeat and take control. No amount of training can instill this into a dog which doesn't have it genetically to 'win' or defeat in light of adversity.

>>“The issue of "dominance" and being "protective" are two unrelated parts of a dog's temperament.”

Yes that's absolutely correct. However, social aggression is not about dominance. A socially aggressive dog does not need to be dominant. They are two separate drives/traits. And a dominant dog is not necessarily socially aggressive.

What your pup did as Ivan put it; is REact in self-defense. The pup was 'attacked' and he simply defended himself out of self-preservation against a perceived (as he saw it) threat.

Fight-drive is completely different from the defense you described. The fact that your pup appeared 'less than ideal' for protection work; was probably due to his 'strong/high thresholds'...where it takes much more than 'what is typical for the average dog' to bring about a comparable 'reaction'...

Anyways JMO.

Brigita

some of u guys misread my post at some point. I clearly stated I have not trained my pup to a point I can say say he has fight drive. I'm completely aware that's out of defense. I was just trying to explain my recent observation of a non-aggressive dog takes pressure much better than other aggressive dogs. ("aggressive" here I mean a dog looks for a fight all the time, esp fight with other dogs.) I just had a doubt on will's statement about socially non-aggressive dog doing real protection is a fairy tale. I cannot even prove him wrong, and I do believe many aggressive dogs did well in real work. My discussion was about non-aggressive types. So "my aggressive dog is so tough" type of typing needs to pause for a few seconds for the argument's sake, and I'm glad ur proud of ur buddies. But for this moment, I just want to hear from someone who experienced so many types, experienced it all, telling his/her share of story. Is it really a fairy tale?

Shon,
If or when I finally see the "non-aggressive dog" that can do real world protection work, I'll be posting it in the forums. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I never mind being proved wrong, but after something has been shown to me over and over again, under fairly strict testing protocol ( and especially when I know that not many people are actually do the correct form of testing ), it becomes pretty apparent to see that people that hold a very different view than mine, can not, in fact, back up their view with any data, much less personal observation.
Like I keep saying, wishing something was true doesn't make it true - and there are *a lot* of people that are kidding themselves ( and others ) about the subject of protection dogs. Some of it is wishful thinking on the part of uninformed owners, and some of it is certain breeders and trainer selling a bill of goods that is actually bogus to uninformed folks. Such is life in the dog world...... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

By the way, when I talk here about social aggression, I very rarely am speaking about dog to dog interaction - I've scrapped dogs out of my training programs for severe dog aggression issues, and I don't tolerate it with my own work dogs , as I'm usually working at least three or four dogs in my home at a time.

will, once again, i am not offering my opinion on the topic of this thread, but instead the way this thread has been handled. i saw you work your dogs last oct. and you know what, i have absolutely no problem with it. infact, i agree with many of the points you have brought up in this thread. herein lies the problem: you have more or less allied yourself with someone whose ethics and training methods are nowhere near as honorable as yours. if you had started this thread yourself, using your own dogs and experiences as examples, i dare say you would not have gotten the kind of rebuttal this thread has gotten. some of what i have to say is going to be repetitious to the folks i have p.m.'d about this, but maybe these are some things you need to be hearing as well. it was just last summer that howard was posting about his insane dogs chasing the horses and biting them. remember? if you don't, then go back and read his old posts. while you're at it, re-read his posts on the previous thread like this one....the encounter with his friend at his home and having to beat the dog to break up dog fights. whether you meant to or not, you appear to be supporting howard. this is why i say a thread that had been started by you, using your dogs, would have been far more credible and worthy of an honest debate. i p.m.'d VC last year over the dog/horse issue and told him at that time, that if howard were my neighbor i would have turned him in for allowing this to happen. i believe we do have to be careful what sort of image we present to the public with dog laws being what they are, dangerous dog lists and banned breeds. the last thing we need to do is to damage the reputation of our dogs so that we run a risk of having them confiscated or euthanized just because of the breed they are. i guess, in a nut shell, my problem is not with you, your views, or methods, but rather with howard. he is asking for information on "social aggression" on one hand, yet on the other hand he tries to appear knowledgeable, attacking and belittling others for views contrary to his. i feel sorry for his dogs. he has no business with the kind of dogs he has, and i fear for the safety of other dogs that are training near his. the things he is doing are dangerous because he is not prepared to deal with the things he is trying to bring out of his dogs.
in the future, will, please be more careful about who and what you seem to be supporting. if you stand behind your own ideals, you can't go too far wrong, but your credibilty is out on a limb when you try to legitimize someone like howard. this is my final post on this thread. i'm outta here. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Patricia, once again your post is irrevelant to the topic. Your just upset because you cant seem to prove yourself right about the subject. Nobody has allied themself with anybody. Everbody posts there opinions openly and distributes there criticism evenly. You do not know me, I have never met you in my life and you have no idea about my training ethics or how or who I train with. YOUR OPINIONS DO NOT MATTER TO ME!!! The fact that you brought up old posts to "win the hearts" of the people on this board is so childish and proves your immaturity. It has nothing to do with this topic at all. You are just bashing people in spite. And Im sure Will does not appreciate your comments. He has been utmost helpful to me and we have talked about that privetely. If you wanted to say this you should have PM me and I would be more than happy to discuss anything you just said. Hopefully you will keep your promise and not return to this topic so it will not get closed again. I respect the opinions of the people that take time out to answer my questions and clear things up for me. You are just a waste of space on this board to me! Good riddence to bad rubbish!

Now, I dont like doing that. I just want to talk about my topic...PLEASE!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I have a question, mainly for Brigita. Can dogs with high social aggression be sociallized to the point that this "edge" is only present with the percieved threat. Or are they always going to be like this? Im talking about socialization at a young age here. You cant take a social dog and make him like this so I guess it makes sense that the reverse is true also. Any thoughts?

I have opened a topic in the working dogs thread to talk about what dogs seem to throw this type of aggression. If anybody is interested.

OK this discussion intrigues me, NOT because I want a PP dog and actually I would want (and have) a dog without notable social agression for SAR but I need the NERVE STRENGTH and drives not as readiliy found in the high lines.

This article indicates that social aggression is primarily a male feature -- I know many people I have talked with really prefer the female dog for SAR for a number of reasons (size, territory marking is less, aggression levels, focus, etc.) and may help me understand (other than size differences) a preference for males in patrol work (other than human testosterone factor)-- of course there are a lot of male SAR dogs but a number of people I respect told me "female, female, female!" when I got my dog.

I would be interested in comments on the accuracy of this article in regards to male vs. female --

http://www.workingdogs.com/dom1.htm

>>I have a question, mainly for Brigita. Can dogs with high social aggression be sociallized to the point that this "edge" is only present with the percieved threat. Or are they always going to be like this? Im talking about socialization at a young age here. You cant take a social dog and make him like this so I guess it makes sense that the reverse is true also. Any thoughts?


Good question. The problem is that the dynamics of social aggression can be complex and it can be influenced by so many other factors like: dominance-->>>handler aggression, level of defense vs a more balanced ratio of prey and defense--->>>suspicious vs a very confident dog (yet both socially aggressive) etc...I believe there are varying degress of social aggression. But if we're talking about a highly socially aggressive dog with a balance of prey and defense and confident (without any other extrinsic or intrinsic factors to consider)...Then I believe with extra (a lot) work one can make a dog like this tolerant at best and indifferent in a non-threatening situation. But they are always 'ready' to 'fire up'. And they always need to be supervised and still need to be in 'expert' hands.

A dog that is more balanced in drives and confident, yet socially aggressive is still a very stable but serious dog; and a dog for the experienced only. But the loyalty and protectiveness they have for their own family/pack is unsurpassable. Exposure and proper handling/training from puppyhood onward can produce a socially aggressive dog which is tolerant in most environments but it's not going to make him 'friendly'; approachable and touched by strangers; or dominated by others than those from his human family and many times only his handler. Such a dog can be 'ideal' for protection. However, if influenced or combined with other factors like dominance (rank) and handler aggression at the slightest correction or handler error, or past negative experiences (as in older dogs) (ie., extreme compulsion, abuse); it can make for a dangerous dog/situation when combined with social aggression in any environment.

Balance + confidence + proper training/handling of a socially aggressive dog from puppy onward ==== can give you an ideal protector and one which tolerates and is indifferent to non-threatening situations/persons but will be the ultimate opponent when needed.

Again an excellent topic and the amount of incredible knowledge so many have expressed is wonderful. It's not an easy trait to understand or appreciate unless witnessed and experienced first hand.

Thank you.

B

Wendy...

Just because a dog is well bred and has extreme/high drives in every dept., doesn't make him socially aggressive.

ie., a leopard doesn't change his spots just because one raises and puts him in a different environment...it's still a leopard...maybe a bit more tolerant but still a leopard and aggressive.

A socially aggressive dog when challenged as in loose farm dogs or loose dog packs is not going to "Leave It" "Ows" and "Heir". Doesn't work that way. And if he happens to be challenged or outright attacked by a socially aggressive dominant opponent...pepper spray is only going to 'pi**' a dog like this off and increase the intensity of this attack. A dominant/socially aggressive dog in fight drive only 'gets off on pain' and goes to next level of intensity.

From my own first hand experience...when 2 such collide...one or both and probably even the person is going to need medical attention. I witnessed one dog his teeth broken, palate lacerated just missing his artery, leg broken with the bone in 11 pieces and protruding out of the skin, extensive hemorrhaging, and the other with massive facial/crannial injuries and spine broken...do you really think pepper spray is going to deter this type of intensity? But yeah, both dogs were the type which would have literally taken a 'bullet' for their handler. In a real scenario they could get the job done and then some...They were both dominant and socially aggressive, and neither was handler aggressive. They just both ended up in each others' 'personal space'...That's all it took.

SAR dogs? Not likely. Protection dogs...most definitely. Loving to their families?...absolutely. Loving to strangers? Indifferent unless threatened or handler threatened. Loyal? To the end. Could be taken into various environments? Absolutely under supervision and never out of sight as may be needed in SAR....Outstanding producers? Without a doubt. Dog aggressive? Nope, not unless challenged or 'invaded'...Sport titled...yup! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> One was a Selectifs Ring III dog from Europe, and the other a Ring III dog and Champion from Europe...

Common sense would dictate that when 2 socially aggressive dogs collide...breaking them up is probably going to land the handler in the ICU or ER at best. Transference of aggression is typical when in fight drive and with such high intensity. Something to think about.