Quote:

PS. leopards aren't pack animals! Ha

Randy, EXACTLY!!

But remember, Ben doesn't believe in pack drive and thinks we've all just been brainwashed by this "stagnant dogma", was it?

Since he believes that all it takes is some nice operant conditioning to achieve the OUT, I suggested he go test his theories on a leopard. One that he raised and conditioned himself. Sure, kitty has no pack drive, but if Ben's right and pack drive is irrelevant in achieving an OUT, then he has nothing to worry about. Right? All that operant conditioning should make kitty eager to spit out the juicy bone on command. Right? :-)

Then he can come back and tell us about the difference between training animals with pack drive (dogs) and those without pack drive (a hungry leopard)

Fair experiment?

LOL



Edit: hahaha, yes Randy, it is getting late. Sorry, I missed the irony in your tone... glad to see you were kidding too

Fair experiment if we can get this Ben to agree to it.

Cool, I want a front row seat.
Randy

 Quote: Yuko Blum

If some stranger tried to order my dogs around I would tell him to stop harassing my dogs and would proceed to smack him upside the head if he didn't relent. I expect my dogs to answer to me and to my family, but that's it. I'll deal with everyone else myself

Or else just send in your pet Leopard ... Yuko ... a girl with all the cool toys!

My Brother in law was a K9 Handler with the RCMP says that they tried Malinois and he stated to me that they still prefered GSDs as they were having 'out' problems with the Malinois that they were using and have moved away from Malinois for the most part. His statement puzzles me as to me right off the bat it screamed out 'leadership and/or training problem'. Maybe it was just a deflection as I know the RCMP have their own breeding program that is based around the GSD so maybe it is more political why they would not want to use Malinois.

Or maybe my Brother in law was just feeding me a line of second hand info since he doesn't work k9 anymore. As I can't see the RCMP messing up training 'out' unless the style of training that they use for GSD doesn't work with Malinois?

I will PM you about the RCMP Mal thing. No RCMP here to verify the statement so not fair to discuss second hand info.

I'll take the leopard if you got one.

In all honesty it amazes me how little you guys are open to discussion. Yuko, if I'm so foolish please PM me one peer reviewed study on social status, pack behavior, and dominance in wild wolves or even better how about one on dogs. And I looked back on the thread on DD collars and do not once see where I changed my mind except to accommodate miscommunications.

Sure dogs desire company, thats why they were domesticated and was a trait chosen for. But why does that mean they instinctually desire a leader and will step up if one is not in place? There have been a few studies on wild dogs (not enough) and while many wild dogs tend to group in loose "packs" many also live solitarily or with just a pair. What explains this? Dogs branched off from wolves long before us humans attempted to tame them, they're behavior has been shaped by many, many thousands of years as both pets and scavengers.

No, Dog will obey its Owner - handler 100% of the time, no matter what is thought here
They are not robots and they will at times pretend they have not heard the command although you can be sure that they did
If this was the case then in Scutzund Competitions according to the Poster then no Dog should make a mistake, and most mistakes of what i have seen just this year in around 12 competitions i have seen, is not because the Dog did not understand the Command. It can be said it had an off day or it plainly did not want to comply with the command of its handler at that time
I think it good that Dogs do not on the rare occasion, and it has to be told a second time, It shows a bit of will and spirit and without Spirit, nothing can survive to live a sound and proper life, humans or animals

Benjamin, first you said this:

 Quote: benjamin colbert

Dogs sense a vacuum in leadership in the way of inconsistent or non existent reinforcement and therefore take advantage of that in accordance with their own motivations.

Then you said this:

 Quote: benjamin colbert

Sure dogs desire company, thats why they were domesticated and was a trait chosen for. But why does that mean they instinctually desire a leader and will step up if one is not in place?

These 2 statements seem to contradict one another. In your first statement, the word "reinforcement" does mean leadership to me. The authority figure is the leader, the leader is the one who provides the reinforcement.

The fact that dogs look for reinforcement is to me part of an instinctual pack drive. Solitary animals do not need reinforcement. The need for and actual delight in being reinforced for a behavior proves to me that the animal seeking it is a pack animal. If a pack animal, then it has a pack drive.

Pack drive to me is simple - it's the desire to be with others of its own kind. With the dog, we have taken that one step further so they look at humans as part of its pack.

Let's take your 2nd statement where you ask "why would a dog step up if a leader is not in place". Don't you agree that in any pack structure there absolutely has to be a leader? Like you said, if a dog senses a vacuum he will take advantage of it. Even a dog that doesn't have the desire to actually take "advantage" of it (because dominance isn't in his character) will do it, although reluctantly, because it's ingrained in every pack animal that there has to be a leader for survival of the pack.

Pack drive is the drive for survival, the drive to work as a team in order to survive, such as in hunting down food. There can be no team without a captain who communicates orders and commands that will get the job done, whatever job is in front of the pack/team. Someone has got to lead, someone has got to follow or the job won't get done. Job not done, no survival.

Pack drive also dictates the desire to comply in order to get the job done. It's part of the desire to survive. Comply or be removed from the pack has got to be an incredible motivating factor for pack animals.

Dogs operate so very similar to humans and human endeavors. Both species group together to get a job done.

So I can definitely see outing an item as a pack issue because it's ingrained in a pack animal to obey the leader.

 Quote: benjamin colbert

In all honesty it amazes me how little you guys are open to discussion.

Ben, if we weren't open to discussion, you wouldn't have two pages (and counting) of debate on this subject. We just don't agree with you.

 Quote: benjamin colbert

Yuko, if I'm so foolish please PM me one peer reviewed study on social status, pack behavior, and dominance in wild wolves or even better how about one on dogs.

Since you're so study-happy, why don't you post one that supports your point of view: That dogs don't have pack drive (i.e. they don't desire a leader). That IS your point of view, right? Or are you still just specifically talking about the out as being a pack issue, because your statements seem to be all-encompassing.

 Quote: benjamin colbert

Sure dogs desire company, thats why they were domesticated and was a trait chosen for. But why does that mean they instinctually desire a leader and will step up if one is not in place? There have been a few studies on wild dogs (not enough) and while many wild dogs tend to group in loose "packs" many also live solitarily or with just a pair. What explains this?

First of all, pack drive, like other drives is stronger in some breeds than in others, and stronger still in some individuals within a breed. Herding dogs, for example, were bred to have really strong pack drive because they had to work closely with their humans (their leader). This is why most well-bred herding dogs will follow you around without a leash and without a reward...as pups or adults. The drive to follow the leader and stay with the pack is a very strong instinct that does NOT have to be taught.

Sure it's motivationally reinforced. But it's there from birth as well. If drives were not influenced by genetics then the various breeds of domesticated dogs that we have now would not be so sharply delineated. If motivation was the only issue then selective breeding wouldn't work and one dog would be much like another.

And it's not just carnivores...herding animals have it too, although it's called "herding instinct" with them. Still, it's the same principle. Staying with the herd (or the pack) and following the leader has been genetically reinforced for ages. It's a way for all to have a better chance to survive (either in escaping or making a kill) than it would be for any solo animal, prey or predator.

And as for an animal that needs a pack (or herd): How could they possible have an organized hunt (or escape) if most of the animals did not FOLLOW?

If they (prey animals) all followed their own mind, they would all scatter and expose themselves.

If they (pack predators) all followed their own mind, they would be disorganized and every man for himself would not make for a successful hunt.

If every wolf within a pack decided to attack another wolf whenever he felt like it, it would be chaos and the pack system would not work. In order for a group to be effective, there has to be a leader. This is true for herds, packs or football players. It just doesn't work if everyone has their own strategy.

But speaking of dogs and not wolves (or football players), are you honestly telling me that you have never seen stray dogs pack up? Do you honestly think that's because they just want company? Are you saying that instead of "pack drive" they have "company drive?"

And how could they possible pack up if they were all following their own desires and not the desires of the leader? They would scatter...one wants to sniff here, another wants to raid this garbage can, another wants to fight that other dog, another wants to chase a cat.

And why don't stray cats pack up? They like company, too. But have you ever seen a pack of stay cats?

I'm sure there are studies done on pack drive in domesticated dogs, I'm sorry I don't happen to have one readily available, but I honestly didn't think I'd ever have to PROVE that to someone! Are you so hung up on studies that you can't see the things that your average 8 year old can see?

 Quote: Jennifer Coulter

I will PM you about the RCMP Mal thing. No RCMP here to verify the statement so not fair to discuss second hand info.

Thanks for the PM that was informative, yes I stated in my post that it was most likely 2nd hand info that I got. But since we were talking about 'outs' I figured it was relevant to the discussion.

 Quote: benjamin colbert

There have been a few studies on wild dogs (not enough) and while many wild dogs tend to group in loose "packs" many also live solitarily or with just a pair. What explains this?

Cool. Let's see these studies, then. Blow our minds!

The bold parts highlight how you don't feel comfortable with your own argument by indicating how little reasearch backs up your point.