The Monks of New Skeet made the alpha roll popular and it's been dissed often ever since.
I still have no problem using it if needed but I would never suggest anyone else to use it without my seeing how they can handler their dog.
By your description it sounds like you handled it beautifully. I also believe by your description that the dog was redirecting frustration on the leash and "probably" wouldn't have gone further at this age and time in training.
Your release of the dog was also spot on. You waited till the dog said uncle (not before)and calmly praised it then.
Kudos!

Yes Bob...It is not recommended to do the Alpha roll...Willie and I have talked about it a few times....I have read in detail how David had done it with Fama in one of his episode....I am very keen on details and I had read his description many times to memorize it and had a picture of it in my mind to visualize it in case that I would have to do it.

Due to Ziva size and having tried so many different ways with her and not having much success we kind of got to a limit in time. She is groing so fast that I could not wait till she is 120 lbs to take up a physical fight with her. Like I said we have tried many other methods with her and having no significant results for this behavior that day I just went for it. Thank Goodness she responded well to it and it seemed that is what she needed. May be if I would have waited longer the results would have been different and negative....it is a chance I took. I do not wish to do it again. I do not count on that method to have respect from her. Hoppefully, having it done at her young age it will be enough for her to have gotten the message. Will see. She has shown in the past to react well to things and after a while changing her mind.

She has changed during these past 2 months, but since this episode she has changed differently, her reaction to my "NO" and "Foowy" are more like head down, even to a lay down like saying "Holy crap, I am in deep doodoo" as before it was more like a stop in what ever she was doing and a look at me.....I am not sure if I am clear here in my description. She is definitely more reactive now. And her desire in wanting to please me is also in a different manner it is with more eagerness then before it was more like "ok, ok if you wish".

Solange...I look forward to your posts about Ziva. As you have discovered, the help on this board is really super.

Good luck with your continuing endeavors with Ziva.

Good definition! Sometimes it takes that little over the top to let them know who's boss.
Now was the time to go for it before she matured.

Very nice, descriptive posts Solange!

I could only dream that all the people I work with are as hard working and intuitive as Solange. She always takes notes and back briefs us to be sure she got all the details. She is growing exponentially in the ability to read her dog. She works very hard with Ziva, but is always patient and understanding. She doesn't get frustrated when we have to shift gears and try something different. She understands that everything takes time. She has the presence, calm, and work ethic of a professional athlete. And most of all, she is 100% committed to working things out with Ziva to the best of her ability.

I was initially concerned, as we all were, for the safety of Solange in handling Ziva. This changed with our first video chat. Ziva is just a spoiled brat with a hard head and a tendency to use her mouth. She is not an aggressive dog. She is not a nutter. One of the first things Solange did during that first chat was straddle Ziva, with no response from the dog. Soon after that, Ziva came over and mouthed Solange's arm. She was playing, albeit in an unacceptable way, but it was play. It was apparent she was not a fire breathing dragon. On a scale of 1 to Logan, she's about a 5. She does challenge Solange, and put on a display at times, but for now, I believe Ziva to be in very capable hands.

Ziva just has bad manners and a stubborn streak. She is also very smart, and independent. It will take some time, and I'm sure she will continue to test Solange over the next year, but I am confident Ziva will be a well mannered member of the family in short order.

Good job Solange!!



P.S. as far as the alpha roll, I would strongly advise against it unless you just have no alternative. I try to avoid a fight at all costs, but if a dog repeatedly brings a fight to me despite my best efforts, I'm giving it back. Seriously JMHO.

Thanks David....When you say that she has bad manners....I agree and it makes me think what I think when I see young adults behaving inccorectly...."either they were not thought as youngsters or were not smart enough to retain what their Mama thought them"....Ziva chose to have bad manners, as you know I do teach her the good way lol....

One more year huh!!!.....well so be it....I already did 6 months and still standing lol.....I think once the obedience is in place and that the dog is more controled and that she gets to do some kind of canine sport.....she also will not need to act up so much....I am looking FORWARD to that moment lol

" taught " lol

good work solange .

i know you are putting in alot of work right now , but don't forget to be enjoying these moments , these little successes that you are creating right now .

it doesn't happen overnight , as you've seen changes through these past six months , the next year will pass quickly .

Thanks Ian....I do enjoy the little successes.....and the bigger ones also lol....she is progressing nicely. I think she will be my success story once finished in ONE YEAR or so lol.

She is loving and forgiving....we both learn from each other. I think I am the one that is doing the most learning though and I enjoy this very much....I loved dogs before and had the luck to have easy dogs in the past....but Ziva made me a passionte. It is like a kid that is learning how to skate to be able to join his friends and one day the seed of wanting to jump and spin grows till the dream becomes an Olympic medal LOL. But as a coach and a parent I want her to be the best she can be and experience success in the process.

The good news was that yesterday my husband that just started his 3 weeks vacations told me "Now you have to teach me what you have learned and how you do with her so I can also build bonds" WOW that made me very happy....The dog is ready to have a second leader as she knows the rules and he is ready with an opened mind to take the leash. These 3 weeks that will follow will be very interesting as well.

I think he will have it easier than me. a) being a male and b) having a dog that has a foundation in its education.

He already sees her differently and added that she is a darn good looking bitch! lol

I also think that even though he knew that I was surrouned by pros on the web it was not clear to him how we made this work....and not being present on a daily basis made it hard for him to follow everything that happened these past 3 months.....having Remi, the Corporal (btw I gave him the rank of sergeant in one previous post) physically here, being able to talk to him in a language he understands and not having me translating, and seeing him handeling the dog also makes a HUGE difference. It is all good....and I can dream bigger now LOL

Even my 12 y.o. step-son acts differently with her....he will gain confidence as well for Ziva can control herself better and doesn't come accross being a piranha any longer lol.

Let us all keep our paws crossed hopping that these vacations turn out being positive for the entire family.

Enjoy your week-end everyone

Cheers

 Quote: David Winners

Very nice, descriptive posts Solange!

I could only dream that all the people I work with are as hard working and intuitive as Solange. She always takes notes and back briefs us to be sure she got all the details. She is growing exponentially in the ability to read her dog. She works very hard with Ziva, but is always patient and understanding. She doesn't get frustrated when we have to shift gears and try something different. She understands that everything takes time. She has the presence, calm, and work ethic of a professional athlete. And most of all, she is 100% committed to working things out with Ziva to the best of her ability.

I was initially concerned, as we all were, for the safety of Solange in handling Ziva. This changed with our first video chat. Ziva is just a spoiled brat with a hard head and a tendency to use her mouth. She is not an aggressive dog. She is not a nutter. One of the first things Solange did during that first chat was straddle Ziva, with no response from the dog. Soon after that, Ziva came over and mouthed Solange's arm. She was playing, albeit in an unacceptable way, but it was play. It was apparent she was not a fire breathing dragon. On a scale of 1 to Logan, she's about a 5. She does challenge Solange, and put on a display at times, but for now, I believe Ziva to be in very capable hands.

Ziva just has bad manners and a stubborn streak. She is also very smart, and independent. It will take some time, and I'm sure she will continue to test Solange over the next year, but I am confident Ziva will be a well mannered member of the family in short order.

Good job Solange!!



P.S. as far as the alpha roll, I would strongly advise against it unless you just have no alternative. I try to avoid a fight at all costs, but if a dog repeatedly brings a fight to me despite my best efforts, I'm giving it back. Seriously JMHO.

Amen and amen!!!!!
I Wish that my schedule was such that I could be more involved here on the board, but I have just been sooo busy.
I chose to spend the time with Solange and I'm so glad I did.
She is so committed to our video meetings...3 times a week for an hour and a half.....and like David says she takes notes and does every bit of homework we give her.
I am also so thankful to David for getting so involved.....It's been interesting coordinating the video calls across all the time zones...that's for sure!!! thank goodness for world clock Apps. lol
A big shout out to Will Rambeau and John Sparks as well. They have been on call and contributed greatly.
Solange is doing great and so is miss Brat.
Remi has been a God send for sure, and I feel great about the way things are going.
He is the one who gave Solange the Fursaver and bumper. I showed her how to hook it up so it acts like a DD collar. That was a huge key, the prong just wasn't a good idea for Ziva.....
Here is a story for you all....
Ziva misbehaved and lunged to the end of the leash, self correcting hard on the prong, she then turned and rocketed up the leash to Solange.....That one ended with them in the bottom of a water filled drainage ditch with Ziva pinned on her side yet again....
I will tell you one thing...Solange has more heart than anyone I have ever worked with......
Her response was to drag Ziva home, put her in the crate and call me from France on the cell phone.
When I told her to put the Fur saver on her and showed her how to hook it up for a DD collar, and then said get your long sleeve leather coat and gloves on and take her back out in the rain...she didn't even blink...she just sucked it up and did it. (She had at this point been instructed by Myself, David, and Remi on the proper technique involved with DD collars and correction theory for weeks if not months...)
It started with Ziva up on her hind legs fighting the leash and Solange, and when Solange applied the proper pressure and technique for a DD correction, Ziva gave it up fast and Did a perfect heel, wrapped and looking in Solange's face for the rest of the walk.

It is a daily challenge with Ziva and Solange has put so much effort into this dog, but the rewards are going to be great!! David and I joke that Solange is now the local expert on these sorts of issues. lol She has learned sooo much and put an unbelievable amount of effort into this project that it just boggles the mind.

Please read and pay attention to all the disclaimers that we have all stated...Solange is a professional athlete that is used to being coached and coaching from a distance and I am as well. She has done some dangerous things and taken calculated risks that are not only specific to her situation but accepted buy her. (I about passed out when she told me that she bounced Ziva.....at first I was afraid that he had actually alpha rolled her....thank goodness she hadn't....but I did have a minor anxiety attack......even so.....bouncing a dog is no small matter....right choice for the situation...and she was able to make that call due to all her education....)

She has had multiple experts involved with her and not just on the phone...real time video chat is huge for this sort of thing, and finally there is Remi....It is her determination and commitment that led to her making friends with him.

Since she was always respectful to the army dogs and handlers when they were training.....never ruining their tracks, and yielding the way every time....taking her dog out of their way to not distract them.....they noted that and were MORE than happy to talk to her and help when she approached them in the field while they were working.
Because of her extensive research she was able to communicate with them in a professional accurate manner and they were instantly intrigued.

Anyway...I ramble on at this point.
Thank you all for your positive input and help. It means so much to Solange.

Watching a new puppy learn is hard to beat. Watching a new handler learn with enthusiasm is right up there with it!