Kent,

I can't help but admit that you are being very sincere in your attempts to teach us the "right way", at least you are trying to explain your theories, no matter how bizarre some of them are. Your main concern seems to be the poor state of the PSD in this country -- these concerns were addressed by at least two K9 officers (Paul & Josh). The lack of participation from other K9 handlers on the board leads me to believe that your arguments are not considered worthy of a reply.

You also had a take on the matter from the point of view of a PPD trainer (Richard)who has the patience of a saint and whose comments hardly need to be improved on, IMO. I would like to address some of your issues from a SchH fan perspective. I am too lazy to fish for actual quotes, but the gist of your complaint is that sporting dogs are the downfall of a working dog. I'm not saying that there is no room for improvement in the world of sport, but right now this is not the issue. There was already quite a bit of debate going on whether a SchH-trained dog will protect and bite for real, and I don't believe the consensus was ever reached, simply because we don't often find ourselves in real life or death situations. I can only guarantee you that neither I nor any of my SchH friends spend sleepless night worrying about it. I believe that the notion that sport dogs are just that -- sport dogs who only bite under a certain set of circumstances -- was partly brought on by SchH people themselves.

Let's face it -- the majority of general population (at least in this country) is opposed to the idea of biting dogs -- period. It's only thanks to the efforts of numerous dedicated SchH aficionados -- going out of their way to prove to the suspicious public that our dogs are not vicious man-eaters but friendly, outgoing, reliable companions -- did we manage to turn the fate of a GSD in this country around. So in this respect, you are actually helping our cause -- and I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Well ok,..

I'm not trying to convert anyone. Just state what I have experienced for myself. I'm also not here to critique others expertise and experiences.

Richard,
You said "The idea behind using a dog is to deploy a non-lethal method of apprehending someone. If you are training the dog to "bleed out" the target, you are training the dog to kill" ... I understand the point you are making intimately well with my background. I'm not advocating a police handler allow a deployed K-9 to use excessive force. The handler has to use judgment and discretion. In a military tactical environment (a different bird, I think you will agree, and my field of experience) the dog has to be allowed to bite and fight in his natrual form. Multiple target - bleed the adversary out so they drop from shock. I am not advocating this mode of application in a domestic police situation unless the situation called for it. Some will, most will not. However, my original point was that the bite and hold is not natural for the dog. A dog bites naturally, using the canines, bite, release, retarget. - I do believe a competent handler could control the dog and use only as much force as needed. Now, in some situations where deadly force is warrented and needed - the bite and hold may result in a dead dog, beaten to death or shot by the suspect. It happens, I know it, and you know it.

I know that trainers often work under time restraints. I won't argue that point. I will say this, training as I have partly described on this board does take a long term and effortful commitment on part of the handler. The dogs are shaped by being part of the handler's life. It is not train for 2 hours and back to the kennel. I understand and respect that this mode of training is not for all. But, I will not accept based on my experience that it is less. It is crucial for the pup to share the handler's life from an early age to obtain optimal results. Is this practical or possible for all? Of course not. I understand that. As trainers and handlers, I do feel that there are methods to train the dogs to a much higher level. I will give you an example. I have worked with and observed a handler and his female GSD on several occasions. The female pup was obtained at 6 months of age. She was raised in the home. She was trained in basic obedience. She was not allowed to mouth her owner. She was corrected as necessary. She was not exposed to prey oriented training. She is from working, not sport lines. She is calm, serious, devoted to her handler. They have an intense bond. - Now, once this handler/owner was at a point in his life where he could devote more time to her training, he started her on agility and scent and bitework. She was about 14 months old at the time. When she had recieved approximately 15 hours of training, she would stay in a down/stay position while her owner walked off (about 35 yards). She witnessed him speaking with the helper, shaking hands, interacting, arguing. She did not move. When the helper moved to assault the handler, she moved. She came in using natural form. She tried to flank the helper, forcing him to turn away from the owner, she came in for a bite when she waw her chance. She naturally began to multiple target the handler. Her owner was running away during this time. When he called her from a safe distance, she came to him. Who was she defending? Herself? I have taken a bite from this little girlie. Very hard biter. She tried to go for bare hand, not the padded arm of my jacket.

Now, as to the comment about prey drive being used to release stress. In a nut shell I believe in working throught applied stress. We must work through the stress with the dog. You must desire and believe. Stress comes in serious work when the dog has the CHOICE of going into flight, or working through the stress with the handler. Training increases the dog's (and handler's) ability to function under stress, to work through it. For a dog - training improves the ability to chose fight over flight. THERE ARE NO COWARDLY DOGS. A dog, a lion, or any other animal will make the choice to survive. One day that may be to run, on another, to turn and fight. Both are natural for survival. Both are serious defense in the dog. No prey here. So, we train to improves the dog's bond to the handler and both handler and dogs ability to work through applied stress. The trained dog has been there and done that. She has a greater ability to obey under stress.

Have a good day all. - Kent

Renee,

I read your post above after I wrote mine. Yes, I am concerned about the state of the GSD. There are very few good and healthy dogs out there. When we look at the dogs in the photos from 50 or more years ago, we can see the GSD in a much more healther form. In ".. GSD in word and picture" we see strongly the Malinois blood, the smaller, more agile dog. No sloped show backs. Inbreeding and show, and yes, in my opinion, Schutzhund, has changed the GSD. I recently walked near a police k-9 vehicle while I was out to lunch. I came within about 20 feet. The officer was nearby. In the back cage was a barking, raging beast. Why? Where is the threat? This is what I mean. Where is the thinker of legend? (excuse me for this... but,) Where did Rin Tin Tin go? Where is the dog reknowned for discretion, thought, choice? Where is the GSD? I do not want to see this great breed on the Ash heap of history. I do not want to see those who have played a hand in its destruction go on to destroy other working breeds. The malinois? Partly done. Where is the thoughtful worker that followed the farmer? -Often bred so hyper that Police Departments shun their use. The "weak nerve" comments I have seen posted here show me people see these things. It is not just an American problem. It started in Holland, Belgium, Germany after the war. A working Malinois should be a calm, stable animal.

Now, having said what I feel to be true. I will say this. I care about the dogs. They serve us. I think all "dog" people should band together to stop breed bans. It is coming. All people should try to breed better dogs. No one should breed a dog with known genetic problems. But, I fear that will not go away. ... and the breeding issue is a topic for another day. Thank you. Kent

I have no problem with a dog showing protective aggression while in a car. If the handler/department doesn't mind, who cares. My dog is VERY hard and un-social while in my truck. Once out he's fine. It has little to do with anything. Rin Tin Tin...that was a made up Hollywood production. It has little, in fact NO bearing on the REALITY of which you speak. I guess because we watch Rambo we think all Special Ops Vets are walking killing machines and time bombs?

More over, how can anyone here have ANY idea of what the dogs are like from 1901? Max's dogs were what he formalized as his view of the GSD. Did anyone here ever own one of his dogs?...NOPE....Ever work one of his dogs...NOPE...We read a book and look at pictures and believe it hook line and sinker. I'm not saying he was a liar, or that he is not important, only that you must look at it with a critical eye. I've read plenty of books of "off-breed" dogs that claim they are the best thing for every working style since sliced bread. Yet, I've never seen one of the breed perform the task. Anyone who writes about what they love and believe in some cases can be "kennel blind." I'm sure Max had PLENTY of crap dogs that no one here would want. To think anything else is short sided and not rational.

I have a copy of and have read Max von Stephanitz's book, The German Shepherd Dog In Word and Picture. He unmercilessly culled out the weak dogs in the litter so that all of his dogs were the best. I hope that clears that up. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Thank you Kelly for so clearly making my point exactly. You read it therefore it must be.

OK - Good point on my carelessness Josh.
Yes, Rin was a movie dog, and a good one. And very "hard" so to speak. But, he was a soldier. A captured German war dog as we all know. I think Jean Harlow was the only person he did not bite that he worked with.
.. The point I meant to make was (and I did a poor job of it) - so, so many PSD's I see rage in and out of the car. I have spoken with many service dog handlers and many say the same thing. No one can be around the dog but the handler. They often bite the handler. You guys do this. You know what I mean here. - Now, I agree that any dog that has the make up to defend me, has to have some "P & Vinegar". My pup is hot. She is full of it. But, I would never tolerate from her what I see in many service dogs. I guess it is best put, wear the hat you need when you need it. So many PSD's could not even live in the home of their handler. Speaking as a parent, I would not want a dog that lashes out on the street. Why should they act this way when there is no threat? Where are the dogs that think?

Kent,
We have had the PSD live in the house thread elsewhere on this BB. I say it comes down to the individual dog and handler. What works for one, will not work for another. As for handlers getting bit, I will not, and can not speak for handlers I do not know or work with. I train about 20 different teams a week and not one has been bit by their dog. I think it actually happens to pet dog owners more than PSD handlers.

Some of the dogs I train are "car hard" others you can climb on in and drive away. It has little to do with a dog thinking of a threat and more of a personality complexity of the dog. For many it is a learned behavior that is self-rewarding. As I believe Donn(Yarnall) and Lou(Castle) state the greatest tools in training is self reward and self discovery. If a PSD barks at someone when they walk near the car and that person reacts, jumps away, the dog learns self-reward and success with the behavior. I also believe it was Lou who says the mailman is the greatest personal property protection trainer in the world. They show up at the same time daily, the dog gains confidence at driving them off with a show of aggression, and thus is victorious. No different than a PSD in the back of a car. They bark, people jump away, act scared, move away, time and time again. Self-reward...look how tough I am. It has almost nothing to do with a threat.

Josh, you are right about the postman. Ours told us the exact same thing. Except that our regular postman can come and put the mail in the box without being seen or heard by any of our dogs. He can be all the way down the street before the dogs realize he has come and gone, and is the only person in the entire world that can accomplsih this feat. The temporary postman we have once a week is like an elephant and always gets caught. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />