Just want to add my $0.02 since I have not posted yet, but have read this entire thread.

Judy, you sound like a very responsible person with a very nice pet, who wants a certain thing FROM that pet which you believe should be easy to train in theory. And in theory you would be correct. But you also seem like someone with very little knowledge of canine behaviour, especially as it relates to aggression.

When you teach a dog to bark on command, there are MANY types of barks. Do you have a SchH field nearby? Make a trip out and see some of the dogs. Their "bark" for their toy is VERY different (if they are serious working dogs) than their bark at the helper for the bite. Some dogs don't differentiate, and are play-motivated in all things. I believe these dogs shouldn't be bred (but that's for a different discussion). My point is "bark" does NOT mean bark aggressively at the person UNLESS you teach it that way...

Which is what you seem to want to do. Fine. There's actually nothing wrong with that in theory. You will have in short time a dog that explodes on command, with a very serious, very aggressive-sounding, intimidating bark directed fully at the person. But consider this. This same bark is what 99% of household dogs do when the mailman comes to the door, and this is ALSO why the mailman is the most likely person to be attacked by your dog.

When you do this to a dog, you "load" him. Loading is a building up of frustration without a release. If you never teach him to bite or let him release that frustration through controlled bitework, he WILL release it himself. You will notice it after several months to even after a year depending on his temperament (a working-bred dog couldn't make 3 months like that) and it will manifest itself in displaced aggression, even bites directed at YOU, the handler. But it will come. Also, if you work with a few specific agitators (as you most likely will have to) it will become extremely unsafe for them to be around your dog for all the same reasons mailmen get bit.

While in theory what you plan to do sounds okay, there is a lot you have not considered. And your trainer hasn't considered either which makes me question her understanding of dog behaviour as well. No capable trainer would suggest that defensively loading a dog, and stopping there, is EVER safe.

I'm not even going to go into all the aspects of a capable street dog, since you don't need one. My suggestion for you would be to find a great SchH club in your area, and go through all the aspects of tracking, obedience, and protection. After doing this you will have a dog that will bark at a person on command no problem. The dog will also get to release frustration through biting a sleeve, and you won't see a lot of the same problems you would without that biting. I guess the alternative would be to find a private training program that follows this same format as the SchH club would, but I think that would be more expensive than a club. Besides, who knows you might LOVE training at the club and meet a lot of great people. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Whatever you decide to do, make an intelligent decision and don't let anyone confuse or pressure you into anything. I cannot tell you what is best for you and your dog, but I CAN promise you that defensive barking with no release will load ANY dog even a non-working bred GSD. And that is not safe. That is actually much less safe than full bitework. So if it was safety you're after, that is not the answer.

Jennifer-I understand your point, it makes sense for the most part. But I have always praised my dogs for announcing intruders-mailmen, pizza men, etc. This includes a stable of "non traditional" breeds ie. hunting dogs. It never resulted in unwarranted aggression- Pat on the head, Good dog was reward(or treat). I think it can be done in this context, and if a dog is reasonablly intelligent he can decipher true intentions and sound off accordingly and the bark can literally be intrepreted as serious or warning-what have you. Any dog can be trained to speak and announce, and this can carry over to bark on command. I dont see too much of a problem, provided the dog isnt overly frustrated, the sessions are short and youre working with the right dog-operative word I know.
I debated long and hard about doing bite work with a DD bitch I have. Just last night was awokened by her around midnight. I had left the garage door open. She heard something and alerted us and convinginly scared off something or someone. I now fully appreciate the SCH work Im doing-manstopper or not, gives me time to get my shotgun and call 911. Perimeter search showed nothing. As a cavaet, I feel if the dog is a good candidate for the work-not too nervy, that SCH is the best way to go and will better enhance your relationship, knowledge and dogs potential. Not worried about liability, a dead intruder cant sue for bite damages. And a trust helps!

Bill, great post...

In a working dog, praising for that will encourage a problem. Actually it's very common someone gets a working-bred GSD, and when the little guy shows "aggression" at a few months of age he is praised... These people usually bring back an uncontrollable dog before a year. The dog doesn't need praise for this. I suspect the REASON you don't have and never have had a problem, is because you have hounds. Be careful encouraging aggression in a protection breed, or you may get more than you bargained for. It is a common mistake people make with their first protection dogs. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It's actually harder to get a dog NOT to announce the presence of an intruder I don't understand why people feel the need to praise it. I treat it neutral, and teach the puppy an "enough" command which precedes any correction for not stopping the barking. As such, I have never had a dog that didn't announce the presence of an intruder. But I also don't have a dog I cannot control.

I think, while this type of training might not negatively impact ALL breeds the same, and might not even negatively impact all breeds, it does not BENEFIT any breed. I'd be willing to bet the farm on the fact that your houns would bark just as much to warn of an intruder as if you hadn't praised them. So it's a case of garlic for vampires... You know, garlic keeps vampires away. Well you don't see any vampires around, do you? So it must work... JMO.

Oh, also agree with you about liability... If my dog ever bit someone protecting me, the guy would not be leaving. Sorry, but that's the world these people have created for themselves. If they don't like it, they can stay in the bushes and try and rape/kill someone else. I don't carry a gun (only the bad guys can in Canada) but I do carry a knife for self defense, and if someone was stupid enough to attack me and get bit, I'd be defending myself completely from them AND the laws up here as well. The laws here cater to the criminals too much to let them walk away.

I agree with you Jennifer, I don't think encouraging aggression towards the mail people, delivery persons, etc. is a good idea. I correct for that. I guess though it would depend on what Bill means by 'announcing'. To me, announcing is 2 or 3 short woof's till they know I know there's company, and those (in my dogs cases) had to be trained to be toned down from the dogs original natural reactions. If I had encouraged them and praised for their over reactions vs. correcting, they very well may have taken that aggression to the next level, and/or thought unwarranted aggression was acceptable. I only want my dogs behaving aggressively toward true threats, and those aren't delivery people. Praising for that doesn't help teach them to be discerning.

Judy, there are a lot of people who train a 'watch em' command which will allow you to light the dog up on someone without engaging. Maybe that's what you're after? I know those people also do bite training too. I think you mentioned your dog is young, isn't he? Give him some time and he should know how to do all that on his own, with just a little fine tuning from you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jennifer-kind of blashemy calling my German bred/registered Drahthaar a hound. Dont let the VDD hear you say that!
In all honesty, I did notice a bit more "aggressiveness" if you can call it that after the SCH work. She seems more strictly business attitude with her protective role, confidence was raised for sure. I have really encouraged/praised the "Gib Laut" so it stands to reason. After last night I dont view this a negative. And thats why I own this breed and not a Golden Retriever. Ive had Shepherds in the past and you can create a monster-no doubt, been there made that mistake!
I too would recommend SCH to anyone that wants a well trained, cooperative animal and why Im doing it. The results are evident-obedience is outstanding now, she is more well rounded in general. As a serious hunt dog and companion/protector she has no equal IMO.

To All - These last fews posts are exactly the problem for someone like me who doesn't know the best thing to do. Don't Jennifer and Bill BOTH make sense? To me they do. Both of them! ARRGGHH!

This is mostly now meant for Jennifer: You explained all that perfectly. Thank you. You took the time to tell me why I might not want and, more importantly, what happens if I consider NOT following thru on bitework. Finally, a reason! Jennifer, I'm going to list/describe a few things that Gunnar does and does not do that might help you help me more than you already have.

13 months, intact, showline history
only dog in household
receives maintenance training 2/day for 10 minutes
received private lessons weekly from 8 weeks to 8 months
lessons now are 1/week with same dog behaviorist in a group
fenced in acre for workouts which he receives w/ ball,etc.
walks every day for socialization from 8 weeks
likes all animals incl. cats & ferrets
loves dogs and people

His temperment is incredibly calm. He will not bark at the doorbell, stranger or not. If he barks on his own while in the house, I'll praise him. Have done this for at least 5 months now. He will not bark indiscriminently. The Fed Ex guy, garbage collector, milkman, mailman are all people he will NOT bark at. I have an electric fence in the front yard and when he is loose in the front and sees them, he just watches them. Nothing more. He doesn't even go to the end of the property to check them out. His nerves seem to be made of steel. When he does bark at a stranger it is when he/she carries themself in a strange way. For instance, a little girl, like 8 years old, saw him on the street coming toward her, she turned her back on him (was wearing a backpack) and stood stock still. This seemed to make him uneasy and he barked at her in that aggressive bark that we all know when we hear it. If we are walking on leash and you, Mr. or Ms. Stranger are coming toward us, he watches you while sniffing the air, sniffing the ground, etc. Never barks. The moment words are exchanged between me and the other person (hello, how are you) he immediately lets his guard down by wagging his tail or he'll turn his back on the stranger and goes about his business. But if I don't exchange words with the stranger, he seems to stay more aware of the other person in a very subtle way. Hope that makes sense.

I've had 2 idiots put there had in the car to pet him without asking me (one was a teenager and the other a gas station attendent). He just wags his tail and puts his ears back and licks people's hands if I allow it. BTW, I yelled NO to the gas station attendent and he didn't touch the dog but, what an idiot.

He is incredibly bright and seems to understand that some people aren't cool but that most people are. I feel he possesses a fabulous temperment with which I can do what Bill mentioned.

However, I do now realize (thanks to your post)that the buildup of frustration can and will occur and I will work with that as well.

So, do you have any thoughts given the description of his temperment?

Oh, I forgot one thing...while I do praise him for the barking while in the house, I also encourage the barking with the "geblaut" command when the doorbell rings.

Funny thing, he will bark ONLY if it's a stranger at the door. I know this because he will listen to the command and bark at the sound of the bell and run to the door but, I began noticing that he wouldn't always listen. I paid attention to the times he would bark on command and the times he wouldn't. It turns out every time he didn't listen to the command it was ALWAYS my mother, or sister or someone the dog knew very well standing at the door.

Maybe it is not a good thing because he should listen to me no matter what. The point in bringing it up on this thread is because I think it shows he's not a monster-in-waiting and the first mistake I make will turn him on the wrong person. I think he gets it at his young age. But, that's why I'm writing. I could be wrong <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />.

 Quote:

Is this the NJ Law being referred to:
New Jersey

Liability of owner regardless of viciousness of dog ....

That's the one I read.

I took that to mean that persons who are where *they have a right to be* are protected under the statute cited......... as in other dog laws I've read -- but I'm not a lawyer.

And when I keep reading, I find this:
QUOTE: The provisions of this act shall not apply to dogs used for law enforcement activities. END QUOTE from
http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusnjst4_19_1_4_19A_17.htm#s4_19_37