My dogs (except Charlie) don't have any problems with car rides, neither with going into nor out. Especially Socks is an absolute fan. Until about two years ago she always sneaked in when a door was open. Once my husband drove away without noticing that she was hidden on the hind seats. I had to train her to keep a sit stay and to jump in only with my permission. The reward then was a little ride. In between she comes running from far away when she hears a car door being opened, puts herself in a sit-stay and waits. But of course she can't always win a ride, she simply has to live with the disappointment. Very bad?

Back to the yawn. slippie definitely yawns when I smile. It can't be discomfort. I guess I unconsciously rewarded her regularly with cuddling when she yawned. Just my strong impression. Is this too far-fetched?

Always a possibility.

Sorry, bad day here!
His car etiquette is bark, climb, whine.
We are working on sitting in the car while it's on or off, haven't driven it yet during the training.
Today was a relapse, this am he reacted on the leash while on potty time, I didn't make a big deal, corrected and crated. Got a Google bruise down my leg, as I wasn't prepared for the outburst.
Trigger, not sure, we had a -40 windchill, I wasn't dressed appropriately, and when he wasn't eliminating after almost 10 min I figured eff it, and turned to head back in ready to crate him, and he reared, bit the leash, clawed my inner thigh, barking and continuously biting the leash. I did a nope, with a leash pop, and basically had to drag him in.
I took him out after with a muzzle, no issue. Sometimes he just has a few weird moments.
Can't help the wind has been gusting to almost 50km everyday for either of us!

Becky,

You and I have entirely different visions of a bad day. My bad day is when a dog decides to seriously take me on.

I expect, in the normal interaction with dogs, young dogs with attitude as an example, to have moments of rebellion and even reaction. It sounds to me as though the dog wasn't inclined to do his duty. So you just turn around, and go back into the house, and if he rebels just continue to march into the house.

Your drag him in, translates to my walk without negotiation. He has the option to fight the leash and I have the intention to walk and he will, I emphasize will, follow me.

Is there any chance you are over anticipating issues? There is a point at which the interaction with the dog is routine. You act the same way every time and the dog adapts to your behavior.

I remind myself with your posts that the dog is still young. And is it possible that how you respond to the dog reinforces some of its behavior issues? Inelegantly put but in my quite limited experience I've witnessed people with dogs, exhibiting the same behavior, respond in different ways. Some are overly harsh, which drives me crazy. And some are overly soft, which is hugely frustrating.

Take the dog out and if he doesn't want to do his duty, bring him back in. I can't see me standing in a -40 windchill, cold, impatient and frustrated with a dog that isn't ready to do his duty. That sets a stage for an unwanted outcome, in my opinion.

I must be nuts but when I work with a dog I have in my mind a plan to deal with various scenarios. I don't ad lib stuff very often. If this, then that. Good behavior rewarded. Bad behavior corrected. Casual interaction with lots of touches and reinforcement.

When I put a leash on a dog, I expect the dog to feel my confidence going down the leash. I love my mutts but our interaction is premised on my being in charge and them being conditioned to my idiosyncrasies, and that relationship is developed over time.

I don't understand the muzzle the second time out. I mean, the dog is only going to do its duty, and you have a leash. In my mind, nothing in his first behavior required a muzzle for the second trip.

A young dog is often a rambunctious dog, is a brat, is a pain, is a lot of things among which is trainable.

If the dog acts up on the leash, sit it. Give training commands to change the moment. Sit, down, stand. Repeat, walk, sit, down, stand. Turn and go the other way. Lots of tools to create your moment and reinforce your dog's compliance to your expectations. All interactions are training opportunities.

Too long an epistle. One last note, it is easy to overly and unnecessarily complicate training. Pick one desired outcome and work on it, and then another, and so forth.

Seriously, the scenario you described is more a day in the life of rather than a bad day, in my opinion.

Need coffee.

Should have gotten into the bad day! Both kids have colds, and I had a massive headache! The humans had a bad day! Harry was just being a lol shite!

Def walking without negotiation, I go, he can roll and flail, rear and buck. Previously, I would stop and wait it out, waiting made it last longer, now I just head in. The muzzle was a warning because he nicked a finger while leash biting,act like that, and you wear this. Leave it in view for the rest if the day, and he is calm.
I hope I push out confidence! I try to just think in the moment! I believe the flailing continues before because I was allowing it and not moving on. Now, I just bring him in and pop him in the crate.
Since its been about 2 weeks, he has been doing quite well I would say. A few slight relapses, but overall, he recovers his better mind much faster, and looks for cues more often than before!
And grooming is no longer an issue. Now I just have to make stairs to go up the table, as heaving his body up with my back usually results in a painful next day. He lays quietly, and even tho he still dislikes his head area done, I compromise by finishing his head with him on the floor, makes it much easier for the both of us.
I will start doing some home exercises myself, so maybe I can release some if my energy.
When he gets into that leash nonsense, I wish he would sit, he doesn't listen to words, most I could do is step on the leash and maybe do a forced down. Not sure if that would be a good thing to try.
He is a young boy, and I am super patient with him, as I know life for a pup is just as much a pain for him as it is for me.
Is the muzzle a no no? I have no problem with not using it, if you feel it's unnecessary. I certainly do not want to set my boy up for failure!

Speaking of that, Betty, I think the car thing started because he was initially only in it to go to town for needles. With the issues of largo and distemper happening regularly up here due to poor ownership on other dogs, we just quickly went in the first few months, got his needle and headed home. He isn't allowed out of the car in town, as there are too many loose dogs, and dunb people. I bought a seatbelt clip, and this weekend we are going to start downs, and once we got that proofed, we can start the drive.
I will def make the car just a ride, and not a destination. That sure seems a way to go to curb any excitement or anxiety!

On the OES site,this is all normal behaviour for a sheepie. Most just ignore the behaviour. They call it a part of the breed. But these are pure positive trainers. In my world, not listening could put us both in danger.
Pretty soon the black bears and grizzlies will emerge from their sleep. So we are going to have to double the leash training, as I will soon have to be hauling the rifle around with me. Which means the leash will have to be clipped to a belt, rather than my hands. With the way he is listening now, that doesn't seem impossible anymore! I know we will have some moments as he matures!
Thanks for the reply Mike, simply put and to the point!
I am yawning now Christina! Lol!

 Quote: Becky Niedbalka

Should have gotten into the bad day! Both kids have colds, and I had a massive headache! The humans had a bad day! Harry was just being a lol shite!

Def walking without negotiation, I go, he can roll and flail, rear and buck. Previously, I would stop and wait it out, waiting made it last longer, now I just head in. The muzzle was a warning because he nicked a finger while leash biting,act like that, and you wear this. Leave it in view for the rest if the day, and he is calm.
I hope I push out confidence! I try to just think in the moment! I believe the flailing continues before because I was allowing it and not moving on. Now, I just bring him in and pop him in the crate.
Since its been about 2 weeks, he has been doing quite well I would say. A few slight relapses, but overall, he recovers his better mind much faster, and looks for cues more often than before!
And grooming is no longer an issue. Now I just have to make stairs to go up the table, as heaving his body up with my back usually results in a painful next day. He lays quietly, and even tho he still dislikes his head area done, I compromise by finishing his head with him on the floor, makes it much easier for the both of us.
I will start doing some home exercises myself, so maybe I can release some if my energy.
When he gets into that leash nonsense, I wish he would sit, he doesn't listen to words, most I could do is step on the leash and maybe do a forced down. Not sure if that would be a good thing to try.
He is a young boy, and I am super patient with him, as I know life for a pup is just as much a pain for him as it is for me.
Is the muzzle a no no? I have no problem with not using it, if you feel it's unnecessary. I certainly do not want to set my boy up for failure!

Speaking of that, Betty, I think the car thing started because he was initially only in it to go to town for needles. With the issues of largo and distemper happening regularly up here due to poor ownership on other dogs, we just quickly went in the first few months, got his needle and headed home. He isn't allowed out of the car in town, as there are too many loose dogs, and dunb people. I bought a seatbelt clip, and this weekend we are going to start downs, and once we got that proofed, we can start the drive.
I will def make the car just a ride, and not a destination. That sure seems a way to go to curb any excitement or anxiety!

On the OES site,this is all normal behaviour for a sheepie. Most just ignore the behaviour. They call it a part of the breed. But these are pure positive trainers. In my world, not listening could put us both in danger.
Pretty soon the black bears and grizzlies will emerge from their sleep. So we are going to have to double the leash training, as I will soon have to be hauling the rifle around with me. Which means the leash will have to be clipped to a belt, rather than my hands. With the way he is listening now, that doesn't seem impossible anymore! I know we will have some moments as he matures!
Thanks for the reply Mike, simply put and to the point!
I am yawning now Christina! Lol!

Becky, with absolutely NO disrespect meant to you or Mike Arnold whatsoever:

I see a VAST chasm separating your Circumstances & Expertise from HIS abilities & physique !!! Also a huge difference between Your Situation and those of experienced OES pet owners who do NOT live in the Northern Wilderness with BEARS No way to "sugar coat" my worries here -- IMHO, it seems as if you honestly Cannot Handle this young dog with BOTH HANDS never mind while carrying a Loaded Rifle over one of your arms ... Am I the only poster on Leerburg who sees things this way ???

I would agree Candi, if it were daily happenings. But it is only once in a while now, and I never use 2 hands. Only the left.

The OES site is full of more questions than answers. Most of the experienced owners allow the behaviour and limit contact with the outside world. So that is why I come here.
From what he was before, the change in him now is enough for me. If this were a constant issue, I wouldn't waste my time. I find he probably has more of a lack of respect sometimes, rather than being just a plain pain in the rear.
If he wasn't showing progress I wouldn't even be here, but since he is, I will continue to work with him.
I have carried the rifle, mag in, unloaded, for the month of feb- March, as it was mom and cub season. It was easy, as I carry it on the right shoulder. Summer, it has to be ready. He is conditioned to the firing of it, and didn't even flinch.
I am off for a long walk, Candi, thanks for the concern, I understand where you are coming from! And appreciate your responses!

Do you have to always walk him on a leash?
Your guy sounds full of beans and needing exercise.
sounds like he just got really excited by wind and weather. That biting up the leash can be a " come ON, let's GO"!

Too bad you can't let him think for himself a little.
"Egads, I'm all alone" can improve a country dogs desire to connect.
A door shut in the face is a real eye opener.

Betty, we are working in the e collar, in free running in the yard. I am hoping in a few months to use it eventually out of the yard.

His recall outside is the best thing about him. My worry is the crazy lady down the road with her aggressive lab, and car chasing. Once we proof 100 percent recall, and have solid obedience around passing vehicles, I can allow him off lead for exploring while walking down the side road to the river.
Right now we do a walk, find a nice area by the river, I let him loose with the e collar, like at home and practice recall a few times while he zooms around on the snow, I can't stand and just watch him play, to get him moving, I have to do a slow lazy walk or initiate him to keep moving, or he justs sits and watches me.
After about 20 min of a few recalls, tons of snow climbing and zipping around, we head out of the safe zone, re leash and back to a solid walk til we get home. Than off leash, e collar again for safety, I clean up the poop, get wood, play ball, than inside for home chores, and he goes back in the crate with a bone.
We walk for an hour and a half to two hours every day, and than a bunch of yard free time a few times throughout the rest of the afternoon. The leash in the yard is only for potty, or if the kids are out.
On really cruddy snowy cold days, I take him to the frozen swamp, on the skidoo trail that is snowed over, and he gets off lead fun walk, as long as I can see 2km on all sides.
Eventually I am hoping to have him only on e collar, with solid obedience, and a solid come sit for passing vehicles. Tour buses up here from May- August are a pain, driving super slow for birders, kicking up dust etc.
Once spring has sprung and the snow is gone, I plan on getting up early, and taking him for a four wheeler trot before the tours get started. That way any walk or bike ride after that will just be a slow, enjoyable walk, and he will have a calmer attitude.

Also now that the sun is no longer going down at 3pm, we can throw in another walk in the evening. Just playing around on how to switch his feed time to accommodate that. He usually eats by 6, I would have to be out walking by 7 latest, to have enough light to see everywhere. Maybe I will feed him later, possibly before 9?
Does that make sense? Does anything I say make sense lol!?