"The marker training needs to be started immediately too. Your comments in the vids show you basically know you aren't doing it right but haven't bothered to correct yourself. "

AFTER the DVD is re-watched. I would also order the next one: Power of Training with Food.

I would NOT corrupt a new marker until the basic marker training points are clear. Ask here is anything isn't clear.

After the video, re-load the new marker.

 Quote: Rovena Kessinger

(I'm already good about training him several times a day in short intervals. He's a little jaded by food, dropping all but the most special treats out of his mouth, so he may have to get a little hungrier.)

Sessions before (not after) meals, and HV treats are fine. Food for now, because toys are far trickier for timing, and the timing in those clips was really off.

Al said:

Management is the key for this situation. Don't "flood" the dog by exposing it to what you are calling "reactive", if you see the dog getting uncomfortable just leave the situation, lengthy exposure won't help. Don't ever let the dog off leash in public or if there is potential for visitors. If you have company just crate the dog. Do tons of basic obedience, it'll help the dog feel the structure it needs. Never trust the dog around people.

This is key!

You will see in the desensitizing threads that the dog is ALWAYS worked outside his reactive zone, NEVER off leash, NEVER flooded.

 Quote: Al Curbow

I think that understanding what a fearful dog is the beginning of learning to manage the dog so it's important to try and get that across to the OP if it takes 100 pages.

Thanks. I really, really am not trying to be disagreeable. Once again I was thinking about this every time I woke up last night. I do completely understand than no matter what, good training is the answer, and despite all I've been learning the last couple months, I haven't quite got it figured out yet.

I guess I don't understand calling something "abnormal" (fearful, reactive, or whatever the case may be) if "normal" isn't defined.

Is it normal or reactive for dogs to be scared of a bear that comes into the yard?

Is it normal or reactive for dogs to be scared of a strange person that comes into the yard?

Is it normal or reactive for dogs to be scared if a cloud passes over?

Is it normal or reactive for a dog to be scared of a vacuum cleaner the 100th time it's seen a one and not been hurt by it?

To me, It seems normal to be scared of a bear. In my opinion, it would be normal for a dog to be scared of "strange" (big, threatening, coming towards them) people if it hasn't been exposed to them enough, or is of a territorial breed that feels compelled to stop the person, thereby putting itself into an even more dangerous position. I don't think it's normal for a dog to be scared of clouds or non-harmful things like vacuum cleaners, after repeated exposure. (I actually wouldn't have any patience with that; I wouldn't be mean to a dog, but I wouldn't want one that was just completely neurotic like that.)

It seems as if any fear of people under any circumstances is labeled as abnormal and reactive by some people. But surely this is a normal response by some dogs under some circumstances. And different dogs have a different response to fear, either fight or flight, depending on the circumstances and their temperament.

This seems to be an additional complication--first there is the reactivity issue, then there is some other aspect of temperament that causes them to attack the vacuum cleaner or pee on the rug.

Here are my three dogs initial and continuing reactions to two big german shepherds that bark and run the fence if their owner doesn't stop them. Which is normal?

Blaze (50 lb lab mix female, older): Walk slowly and stiffly, hackles and tail up, facing straight ahead. Seeming to neither look at the dogs or look away. Diminished with time, now mostly ignores, but never goes near the fence.

Moonie (30 pound beagle mix female, older): Become excited, can't tell if hackles, pulls on leash towards dogs, barking. Diminished with time, but still pulls towards fence, and would like to pee all along the edge of their yard if allowed to.

Mondo (60 pound shepherd/lab/boxer/etc. mix male, young): surprised, alert but tail more down than up, goes towards end of leash as far away as possible, tries to get into trees and walk there, no hackles. Diminishes over two or three occurrences, now completely ignores them.

It would seem to me that Blaze and Mondo's reactions are normal, and Moonie's reaction is abnormal. She is normal under most circumstances, but she has always thought she could fight big dogs for some reason.

 Quote:

Understanding that you can't train out fear is most important if indeed it'a a fearful dog. We should be explaining management along with basic obedience to help. You can mask it to a degree but it's NEVER going away. It's not training, it's the dogs brain that's the problem.

That's the whole issue that I've been trying to figure out, and why I kept on talking about it. I know I type way too much, so my examples are lost, but consider how Mondo initially barked at people outside the car as we were driving by them, but very quickly was able to be calmed even stopped at a light with people walking right towards us. I saw him start to become alert, but with minimal calming from me, he was fine. Does that sound like a dog that has a brain problem?

Now, maybe he was abused by a delivery man, and DOES have a single-issue abuse thing, and I don't know if that is a brain problem or not, but when I can see him be afraid of something initially, and learn very quickly if it is or isn't really going to hurt him, I just can't believe he has whatever brain problem causes fear of vacuum cleaners forever. It's not denial, or caring if he is or isn't neurotic, it's something that seems to matter in how I deal with him.

So, if it's not a brain problem, and he is able to lose his fear after very short exposures, which I really believe it is, it becomes a training problem, I think, which was my initial question: Am I (as a non-pro) capable of getting him to the point where for example say we go to the vet, somebody stares at him from very close quarters, I see him begin to react--can I expect to successfully give him a command to stop, or one which is incompatible with attacking, and have him obey? Not just soothe him, because it's possible the case may be beyond soothing or calming by me at the moment for whatever reason, unlike when the people were outside the car. A real command that overcomes his impulse to attack. Of course I would just pull him away if he was on a leash, but in case of emergency.

I think I actually am going to have a much easier time, if he's not really reactive neurologically, which I don't believe heis. (You'd just have to be around him to decide, I know some people are not going to believe me, or they have a definition of normal/abnormal that I don't understand.)

 Quote:

One more try to the OP,
Management is the key for this situation. Don't "flood" the dog by exposing it to what you are calling "reactive", if you see the dog getting uncomfortable just leave the situation, lengthy exposure won't help. Don't ever let the dog off leash in public or if there is potential for visitors. If you have company just crate the dog. Do tons of basic obedience, it'll help the dog feel the structure it needs. Never trust the dog around people.

Yes. That is what I have been doing, and plan to continue. He has already been exposed to other walkers and has improved considerably over time (from freaky-scary vicious to slight hackles or no reaction.)

 Quote:

Those are some basic management things. I truly hope you don't take this defensively because I'm trying to help you and your dog and wish you both well.

I think you're totally right with everything you've said. I'm sure there are fearful dogs who can't be trained out of it. I do know that you and everybody are trying to help. And it really has.

 Quote: Tresa Hendrix

(Lol I don't think "dominant" is layman's terms.

LOL no but "dominant jerk" is...and I know you knew that already.

No, I have no idea what that means, adding "jerk" to a word I don't understand doesn't make it more understandable to me. As I said, it seems like every dog is dominant when they can get away with it. Is it being a jerk when it becomes stupidity? Is Moonie a dominant jerk because she wants to attack the two german shepherds that would kill her?

 Quote:

The marker training needs to be started immediately too. Your comments in the vids show you basically know you aren't doing it right but haven't bothered to correct yourself. So to have forward momentum this can be done after walks in the house. I don't see any reason not to.

I've been doing marker training constantly since I got him. Almost all his food comes from that. I don't now how to do it right, it's not that I can't be bothered. Sigh..I don't know why you always assume I have the worst intentions and attitude.

 Quote:

I'm still curious about the vet visit.

I described briefly above; I'll find the original post, if that's what you mean, the long version.

 Quote: Jenny Arntzen

I highly recommend "Really Reliable Recall" by Leslie Nelson. It not only teaches you how to build a good recall with your dog, but the process of building the recall is also building a trusting, consistent relationship with your dog.

http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?id=dtb810p

Cool, thanks; don't have that one.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

"The marker training needs to be started immediately too. Your comments in the vids show you basically know you aren't doing it right but haven't bothered to correct yourself. "

AFTER the DVD is re-watched. I would also order the next one: Power of Training with Food.

I would NOT corrupt a new marker until the basic marker training points are clear. Ask here is anything isn't clear.

After the video, re-load the new marker.

I did watch that one. I'll watch again. I think I need professional help. I feel like I'm clicking when he does it, but you guys didn't think I was, so it's hard for me to fix.

I don't know if I'm supposed to be like totally starting from scratch like in the DVD with NILIF, or just doing a modified version and adding training, etc. as if he's a few weeks into it. Know what I mean?

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

Al said:

Management is the key for this situation. Don't "flood" the dog by exposing it to what you are calling "reactive", if you see the dog getting uncomfortable just leave the situation, lengthy exposure won't help. Don't ever let the dog off leash in public or if there is potential for visitors. If you have company just crate the dog. Do tons of basic obedience, it'll help the dog feel the structure it needs. Never trust the dog around people.

This is key!

You will see in the desensitizing threads that the dog is ALWAYS worked outside his reactive zone, NEVER off leash, NEVER flooded.

I know. I keep saying, he is not reactive to any situation we encounter normally, because he has become used to everything we encounter on a regular basis, even things that initially made him react. That's why I don't think he is reactive. I'm sorry but if I keep getting advice on what to do with his reactivity, and he is never reactive, I...don't know what to do, I guess I'll eventually give up and try to start a new thread with specific questions after people forget and stop focusing on that exclusively. He's not sensitive to anything that I know of now except delivery men. So I literally never deal with him having some kind of reaction. He has no reactive zone, except probably with delivery men. He doesn't have any exposure to things that make him react, much less lengthy exposure.

Question about training:

Should a dog's "place", like a bed on the floor, be in view of you or not? Mondo has this way of getting my attention and making me look at him, and I can tell that rewards him. If I make him leave me alone (not pester me with toys, or whatever he's doing), he will stare at me, make a small noise like clearing his throat, then get happy and wag his tail when I look at him. It's hard for me not to look; I just kind of automatically do it.

So, should the bed be out of my sight, or should I try very hard to not look at him when he tries to get my attention? Should I just ignore him, or should I tell him "No" when he does very small things to try and get my attention, but is basically doing what I told him, which is lie in his bed?

P.S. I have put his toys up now, but he can find a 100 year old cat toy from under something and have a great time with it. Soon I'll have them all.

If you want to see really good clicker training technique in action, I highly recommend Leslie McDevitt's Control Unleashed. She really helped me understand the relationship between clicking the behaviour, and delivering the reward.

Also, being able to read your dog's body language can really help with avoiding situations that turn dangerous. Turid Rugaas has done a very good job at interpreting the calming signals that dogs give. At the other end of the scale, Grisha Stewart (look up BAT - behaviour adjustment therapy) gives very detailed analysis of a dog that is becoming aroused (over-excited, preliminary to over threshold reactions). Grisha Stewart also gives an approach that looks at 'functional rewards', that is, what is the dog seeking to accomplish by barking, lunging, charging, etc. and helping the dog to learn to use calming signals and make choices that accomplish the functional reward without the drama.

You said, "dropping all but the most special treats out of his mouth, so he may have to get a little hungrier". This might also be an indication that you are working your dog too hard and he is stressed.

I hope you realize that the kinds of changes you are hoping to make are going to take time, quite likely months, if not years. It is important to learn to enjoy your dog, who he is, and work on building consistency in your handling skills (it is your handling that is going to change, your dog is conditioned to your handling).

One last point, every dog is unique, and brings a unique combination of age, gender, breed, history, temperament, intelligence, aptitude, sociability, independence/pack minded. Comparing different dogs and trying to explain their behaviour in relation to each other is not going to be productive.

With a reactive dog you are dealing with management, obedience, NLIF, and behaviour. It is a challenge, but there is never a dull moment!