I have to agree. I see a mobile off-leash dog park, and I read an over-inflated opinion of your ability to control it.

The clip with the kids, with you far away, made me shudder.



Nothing you continue to assert about the visiting Dogue de Bordeaux justifies what you set up and allowed to happen.

I know that clip was long ago and you've posted a few dozen since, most of which I haven't looked at yet, but one of the problems I deal with fairly regularly is dog-reactive and dog-aggro dogs, and what that clip showed was a prime way to create one in one quick session. There is no end that justifies the means in that clip.

 Quote: andrew harris

 Quote: steve strom

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FCsh8vJfPo

This video is exactly what the bordeux used to experience because of the way she would approach dogs.The boxer in this approaches with too much excitement and is invasive towards the smaller dog which responds by letting the boxer know she is not comfortable with that type of approach.

Andrew;
You're still missing the obvious. The smaller dog lashed out at the boxer because she was super-stressed out and did not want to be in that situation. The owner further complicated the situation by allowing her to possess an item in this chaotic environment. The captions in the video spell that out. Where's the mystery? THE OWNER FAILED TO PROTECT THE DOG, SO THE DOG WAS LEFT TO FEND FOR HERSELF.

In all of the videos Steve posted, the dogs were put in bad spots because of ignorant owners. What is beyond me is how these people can continue filming and/or stand by as these incidents develop. I know I'm not the only one who can see disaster coming; it's in the body language of all of these dogs.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

I have to agree. I see a mobile off-leash dog park, and I read an over-inflated opinion of your ability to control it.

The clip with the kids, with you far away, made me shudder.



Nothing you continue to assert about the visiting Dogue de Bordeaux justifies what you set up and allowed to happen.

I know that clip was long ago and you've posted a few dozen since, most of which I haven't looked at yet, but one of the problems I deal with fairly regularly is dog-reactive and dog-aggro dogs, and what that clip showed was a prime way to create one in one quick session. There is no end that justifies the means in that clip.

I do accept that my approach and methods with the bordeux was not the best way to deal with the situation and that tho the ultimate outcome has resulted in solving the problem with the way she approaches other dogs now it could have gone very wrong .I will add I have owned mastiffs for over 20 years and try and show other mastiff owners and breeders what can be achieved.In the UK it is more the norm for neo owners ,breeders and those that show for the dogs to be more of a trophy or a money maker (neos selling for over $2,500.00 and stud service the same)

"2009 Club show
The Neapolitan Mastiff Club 6th Breed Open Show
Date: 11.04.09
Judge - Brian Hill

Many thanks to the other Officers and Committee of The Neapolitan Mastiff Club for giving me the opportunity to judge such a wonderful show. I only found out at 9.30 pm on the Friday that, both elected and reserve Judges were unable to attend due to ill health and the 2010 Judge had prior commitments. The show opened with a spectacular line up of dogs Not For Competition expertly introduced by Mr Mike Evans, and what an excellent entry of Mastini to Judge. My thanks to my two expert stewards and scribe who did a wonderful job.
My main criticisms on the day were: (a) Many exhibits had weak pasterns and no muscle tone indicating lack of exercise."

"2010 Club show
The Neapolitan Mastiff Club - 7th Breed Open Show
Date: 10.04.10
Judge Jeff Luscott - Critiques

Just some thoughts and areas to keep an eye on, the musculation in topline and rear quarters could be worked on for better muscle tone and strength, and good handling can always improve a dogs performance in the eye of the judge, especially if maybe a slightly larger ring could be provided to give the dogs more space, standing and moving. I wish you good luck for your future shows this year and thank you once again for bringing such great dogs for me to see and judge.
Well Done To You All"

"2011 Club show
The Neapolitan Mastiff Club - 8th Single Breed Open Show 09.04.2011
Judge Zena Thorn-Andrews

The Neapolitan Mastiff Club held an Open show at the excellent venue of Aldersley Leisure Village Wolverhampton. A good entry of 57 of which 8 were Not for Competition, probably because of cropping or too young to show! The Committee were most welcoming and looked after me so well. All the competitors were sporting and shook hands with the winners in every class.
I thought the standard was good overall, only one exhibit untypical, throwing more to the Dogue de Bordeaux, many were in excellent body and condition but sadly some lovely dogs were either badly out of coat or under-muscled. I feel this breed should show latent power on the move and thin stifles and under-muscled shoulders do not belong to this large working breed .


Above I have copied comments from shows organised by the breed club who also choose the judge,it is not a championship show .I do not show my dogs at all.You will note that there is a mention in all three years with regard to muscle tone which is solely down to the dogs not being exercised and when you consider that at the clubs own show all the top owners and breeders bring their dogs it does not set a good example and tho I have only bred twice in 20 years I refuse to sell my dogs to show people and have thier KC papers restricted.You will know from my previous posts that both my males are castrated.I may not get things right all the time but I do try and show people here in the UK a different type of ownership of these dogs as opposed to one where the dogs are rarely if ever taken out are never socialised with other dogs apart from when they are taken to shows.I show that they can cohabit with each other harmoniously as opposed to being in isolation .
I looked at a post on here from a mastiff breeder

http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=21486&page=1

In this post she openly states she has owned and raised mastiffs for 20 years and says she has never had control over them and goes on to describe the many agression issues she experiences.I then go to her website where it says
"THE BREED FOR YOU
Think carefully before purchasing a dog. This is a lifetime decision and dog ownership
comes with a lot of responsibilities. Think about your lifestyle...how much time and
energy will it take to train, groom and exercise your dog? Puppy buying should never
be a spur-of-the-moment decision. A lot of thought, consideration and research
should be done before a new puppy is brought into your home."

This is very typical of the situation in the UK where the first advice given to the new owner of a mastiff puppy is obviously from the breeder who they are handing over thousands for their new dog when the majority of breeders have little or no actual practical working knowledge of raising a dog outside of a breeding or showing enviroment.So as I have said I dont always get things 100% right but the quality of life that my neos have is far better than the majority of this breed in the UK.That is why whilst I wont show my dogs I do do the discovery dog stands at Crufts (basically there is a stand for every breed and members of the public can visit and find out more about the breed they are interested in) and being at the shows I get to watch the neos in the ring of which many are so unfit due to lack of physical exercise tire quickly from just going round the ring and are in my opinion overwieght and I am often asked by people why my dogs are not as heavily built as the ones they see in the show ring.

Sooo, you want some excercise tips to impress the judges that arent judging your dogs who won't be shown anyway? And I'm not sure what your point is by linking that other thread? You already know how to post pics.

 Quote: steve strom

Sooo, you want some excercise tips to impress the judges that arent judging your dogs who won't be shown anyway? And I'm not sure what your point is by linking that other thread? You already know how to post pics.

Your post bares no relevance to anything I have posted no where have I asked for exercise tips and the posted link has nothing to do with posting pictures .You seem to be confrontational for the sake of it the link is that of a post started by Roanne Ris
which you have posted on several times.Perhaps you should take more time to see what is being posted instead of glancing presuming and then get the wrong idea totally .The fact you have not critised this poster in the same way as you have me is somewhat baffling and makes you come accross as vendictive and insulting.This person sells dogs has multiple dogs of different breeds which she openly admits has no control over them and have even attacked innocent dogs and are attacking each other due totally to none of the dogs owned by this person ever being trained from being a puppy and yes she admits she is at fault but none the less admission of guilt does not take away the responsibility of owning large powerful breeds yet not imparting of the facts like breeding and selling such breeds without having the knowledge to train them or impart the required knowledge to the purchasers of her pups as they do not have that knowledge in over 20 years of owning neos my dogs have NEVER attacked another dog or fort against eachother NEVER yet I dont see consistancy in what you are posting.

Andrew;

I truly respect your dedication to your breed and to your pack. I just feel that all dog owners need to be aware of the danger signs in dog interactions. My dog can't have the full social life that I wish for her because...

Other people let their dogs approach mine. Ignorant, stupid, oblivious people.

The typical response is "Oh, he just wants to play" or "They need to be properly introduced", while my dog is staring down the other dog, hackling up, and straining at the heel. My dog is dog-reactive, dog aggressive, and very, very sharp. Why does my dog need to greet someone elses dog?

Anyone who can't see the improper handling in Steve's videos and some of yours has no business owning dogs, much less exposing them to the public and other animals.

 Quote:

Just some thoughts and areas to keep an eye on, the musculation in topline and rear quarters could be worked on for better muscle tone and strength, and good handling can always improve a dogs performance in the eye of the judge, especially if maybe a slightly larger ring could be provided to give the dogs more space, standing and moving. I wish you good luck for your future shows this year and thank you once again for bringing such great dogs for me to see and judge.
Well Done To You All"

"2011 Club show
The Neapolitan Mastiff Club - 8th Single Breed Open Show 09.04.2011
Judge Zena Thorn-Andrews

Vindictive? No. Insulting? Probably. But relevant to what you posted? Did you even read what you posted? Were you trying to use the critiques of show judges chosen by show clubs to prove you're above them all? If they don't matter to you, why cite them?

In 2008 Roanne asked about some issues and people, including me responded. In 2012 Roanne had the same problems and we responded to her again. Here's that thread Andrew:

http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=32269&page=1

Other then some kidding about pictures, she wasnt attacked in either thread.And you havent been either. Do you think its being vindictive to point out the similarities from 4 years ago? I think its more vindictive of you to throw her thread out there trying to use her as some kind of an example of what you think are bad show folk.

Lots of people own multiple dogs, teaching them to behave is a minimum of whats needed, and its not some special skill that only a very few are capable of Andrew. The point of my comments to you are that responsible owners don't use their dogs to run around pretending they're Cesar Millan, inflicting themselves on other dogs, Horses, or the public. Its all just wonderful, until that one time its not.

Andrew, you are truly not getting it. So much of what you answer has nothing at all to do with anything anyone is trying to tell you.

In answer to long-experienced trainers who try to tell you that you are playing with fire and exposing yourself and your pack and the public as well with your ill-considered "training exercises," you post "comments from shows organised by the breed club who also choose the judge, it is not a championship show. I do not show my dogs at all," and "I get to watch the neos in the ring of which many are so unfit due to lack of physical exercise ...."

Great. So what? This is the kind of non sequitur that we see, and then you don't understand the answers, the answers trying to tell you that what you are saying is irrelevant to the serious advice you are getting.



"The point of my comments to you are that responsible owners don't use their dogs to run around pretending they're Cesar Millan, inflicting themselves on other dogs, horses, or the public. Its all just wonderful, until that one time its not."

"Anyone who can't see the improper handling in Steve's videos and some of yours has no business owning dogs, much less exposing them to the public and other animals."


THOSE quotes are what it's about.



And NO ONE who could write "if you look at the body language of the bordeaux you will note there is no sign of fear coming from her she saw it as a game" should EVER have "visitor" dogs, period, never mind with all the dogs uncontrolled and the only thing you are focused on is a camera.



Your "friend" (the "trainer") is doing you no good turn by encouraging you in your dangerous public experiments.

The owner of this site has written many articles (especially against dog parks) that IMO define you perfectly: the embodiment of owners who have ill-considered ideas of what "socializing" means to pack animals, paired up with little understanding of pack leadership.

It's frightening to me that you have taken what's represented in the clips of your pack, on your own property, happily being dogs -- clips that were enjoyed and admired by many here -- and somehow talked yourself into believing that it's admirable to inflict the entire pack, uncontrolled in any real sense of the word, on the public.

Quote: "You have beautiful dogs and they work together well as a pack. You could pay better attention to how they interact with their non-pack members."



And Bob said " My comments aren't to insult you but everyone here cares about the dogs. Hopefully you will at least consider everyone's criticism as constructive.'

That, IMO, was the feeling and the tone of all the comments here until it became obvious that nothing was really penetrating.



I sincerely echo this quote:

"Whatever it is you think you're accomplishing, I absolutely hope nobody gets the idea you are any kind of an example of responsible dog ownership or that this nonsense offers anything worthwhile as far as dog training."



JMO: You need to back way up, Andrew. I really hope, for the sake of your dogs, that you do. Bob was 100% right that about the fact that the long-time members here really care about dogs. And yours (as well as innocent bystander dogs and/or people) will probably pay a high price for your arrogance if you don't.

You're capable of much better and much more responsible and less arrogant pack ownership.

sorry i'm a little late to the party . . .

i've watched the first two ( bordeaux and horse ) and i'm just gonna say : " not real impressive " .

in the first one the big dogs run around harassing the new one until they are too tired to do much else and then i see some half assed behaviours . show me some good responsive OB while those dogs are in high drive and you might have me interested . in the horse one , the dogs are doing pretty much what they want until a bunch of yelling and weak recalls .

i realize that different breeds will present a different picture for the " same " behaviour . what i see particularly from these two videos , and the other bits ( what a recall !? ) that i quickly scanned , is a lack of engagement . andrew , in the horse one , you call the dogs ( repeatedly ) with a " come " command , a dog runs toward you , then i presume gets a reward ( can't see because of the camera angles ) and then heads off on his own thing . the " sits " at the end of the first vid look pretty random , and certainly not proofed or enforced .

i appreciate your recording the vids , but the quality is not that great , to the point that it's value as a learning / teaching tool by anyone other than yourself is questionable .

i'd suggest you put the camera in someone elses' hands , give them some direction as to what you want to portray , edit out the shitty camera work and stuff that has little or no relevance .

that way you can show us what is really going on between you , your " pack " , and the other dogs . FWIW , i've shot a lot of gopro in my career , and when i review it , i realize how little of it truly depicts what i wanted to demonstrate . eventually some of my footage will be seen by others , but only after i consider what should be seen so that it is productive .

here's my opinion on the dogs training dogs thing . . . unless you've actually trained your dogs to somehow specifically modify the behaviour of other dogs , then what control over the " training " do you actually have ? i don't just mean " i'm the leader of my dogs , so the other dog will just figure out their place " stuff , i mean " this particular dog displays " X " , so it needs more of " Y " , as a generic example . i don't consider following the dogs around with a camera for 10 minutes until they are either bored or tired to be valuable , productive " training ".

i'm an open minded guy when it comes to training dogs , and i do subscribe to the " whatever works for ya " as long as it's safe and no one gets hurt school of thought but i'm a little wary of humans putting too much stock into the whole " pack mentality " approach . i'll readily agree that there is a value to exposing dogs of varying temperaments to each other and different social situations , but i think more can be gained by focusing on the relationship that the handler has with each individual dog .