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I've had 2 idiots put there had in the car to pet him without asking me (one was a teenager and the other a gas station attendent). He just wags his tail and puts his ears back and licks people's hands if I allow it.

Forgive a post from a noob, but to my understanding, isn't that bad? A dog savvy bad guy could come up to your dog all confident and friendly, give him a good scritch and treat and lead him away, stealing him or even disposing of him to get to you? I know that good nerves are an obvious requirement but I remember reading that the dog still has to be reactive to a degree; a dog with unmovable nerves could very well think there is no threat when in fact it- and YOU- are in grave danger.

Personally, I'm not sure that I like that a perfect stranger reached in to your car and petted your dog and the dog *enjoyed* that. Sure, your dog is still young and maybe that is the reason, but now a question to the experts: does this situation (the stranger reaching into the car and petting the dog with the dog accepting the attention submissively) set the dog back in training, making it think that strangers that do that are okay?

Great discussion, btw. I hope I didn't ruin it with this! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hi Diana,

I should have put in a few more details. It went exactly like this:

Incident 1) dog in back seat with windows opened, I pull into my son's high school and parked. A student tried to hand my dog a sneaker he found and by keeping the sneaker in between the dog and his hand. The idiot teenager probably felt his hand was safe. My dog wagged his tail. The kid never touched my dog because I yelled "Hey" or something like that. My dog was 8 months old at the time.

Incident 2) Getting gas, dog in back seat, windows open. Man begins to reach his hand into the car and says at the same time, "Can I pet?" I said, "NO, you cannot pet the dog". He actually questioned me. I repeated no and he stopped any movement toward reaching in with his hand. He never touched the dog because I stopped him in time but as he was reaching, my dog wagged his tail. He was 8 1/2 months old at the time.

Even though he was very young, I still thought, "hey, shouldn't he be more leary of strangers"? Now that he's 13 months, he still has that laid back attitude toward them but, I think the difference now is that if I were to react scared of the gas station guy, I know he would react too. Not sure to what degree.

I have a lot of contractors at my house doing various big jobs, i.e. building patio, landscapers, irrigation contractor, etc. Whether inside or out on our lawn, if we drive home (dog and I) and he sees a stranger in our yard, he doesn't react. So, just last week I tested to see if he could be called upon to react so I pulled into the driveway, saw the Electric Fence people waiting outside of their van for me so I give Gunnar the command to bark at them. He did and did it with a look like, "What did I miss, are they the bads guys I should be looking out for?" I then gave the command to stop. He did immediately.

Personally, I dont think your dog will be setback or traumatized through the few encounters you desribed. For true working dogs you would expect and train for different behavior, ie guarding the car/you aggresively, but this isnt what you have or want, I dont think, but more a visual deterrent that can sound off when commanded.
In general I dont think its good to allow others to become too friendly with your dog-social but not overfirendly unless a regular visitor, like a family member. I dont want a dog to be stolen, mine would not be-Ive tested this a few times. Her posture is very defensive.
Incidentally, I do allow some strange women/small children to pet my dog. I dont allow men, in general. The results are what I expect and desire. I actually command her to "Say Hi" and that means she can be petted and initiate friendly contact, but it must be commanded. May or may not be adviseable. I want a social dog w/children and wifes friends but one that is discriminating, and feel like I have that, to a large degree.

First of all, to Bill, I apologize. I read "hunting dogs" and I turned that into "hounds" in my own mind. I forgot there are also pointing breeds and retrieving breeds. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I bet your dog is wonderful. But there is a reason this breed isn't seen in the top levels of protection sports, or make the list for a "protection breed" and that is because they're different than a shepherd or malinois. That's not blasphemy or talking down about your dog, it is simply stating a fact. Just as you'd probably never use a malinois for serious hunting. I love all breeds. But I also recognize all breeds have a purpose, and that purpose differs from breed to breed. So speaking about your dog in the same context as a protection-bred dog (which is what working shepherds and mals are nowadays, since they certainly aren't herders) is not a fair comparison. I apologize for saying hounds, and did not mean it in an insulting way (hey, I LOVE hounds!) but my original statements still apply. Interesting discussion! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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13 months, intact, showline history
only dog in household
receives maintenance training 2/day for 10 minutes
received private lessons weekly from 8 weeks to 8 months
lessons now are 1/week with same dog behaviorist in a group
fenced in acre for workouts which he receives w/ ball,etc.
walks every day for socialization from 8 weeks
likes all animals incl. cats & ferrets
loves dogs and people...

Hi Judy, I will give you the best evaluation I can right now over the internet. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

First of all, he is young. He's got a LOT of maturing to do. Some lines of GSD don't mature in their defensive nature until after 3 years, and some start as early as 6 months of age. Neither is incorrect, though working folks like a dog who matures quicker so they can progress at beyond a snail's pace. While show folks tend to not mind a dog who's suspicion doesn't develop until after he's done in the show ring, for obvious reasons. That's personal observation. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As far as "showline" goes, that means little by way of temperament at THIS level. I've seen calm dogs come out of show lines, and neurotic fear-biters come out of the same kennels. So it isn't fair to make blanket statements. By what you say, your dog is definitely strong of nerve and NOT sharp. In fact, I'd venture to say he would not be "sharp" enough for serious protection work. Do you wonder sometimes if he'd actually have to be clobbered before he would know someone was a threat? For a working dog, nope not suitable. But for a pet?! Probably you lucked out and got a FABULOUS dog and for that I am glad for you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I don't think you will have ANY trouble getting what you want (I teach a "watch 'em" command too) but still believe a certain level of bitework is going to be important to maintain stability. If you decide not to do the bitework, then don't even START into protection. I mean, having someone once or twice come out and have your dog scare them away is one thing. That won't ruin him. But organized sessions over a period of weeks/months is going to cause you problems, IMO.

You will find what you're looking for both at a SchH club and at a trainer who is willing to work with you through the levels of alert and simple on-lead biting. I personally like to add the control of off-lead bitework, sending the dog from a distance, and call-off (where you send the dog, then stop him before he bites) as while you would never send your dog in real life, the call-off is invaluable.

Basically, I believe if you're gonna teach your dog to bark convincingly and threateningly, then you better let him bite to relieve the stress... And if you let him bite, you better teach him when and when not to bite. Then you have bitework. There really is no middle ground there. No one says you have to take your dog to the most elite levels of sport, but the below should be part of his training, if you're going to do it at all:

1. Bark threateningly (watch 'em)
2. Simple arm bite on-lead on an attack command or assault
3. Simple out and guard/bark or return to heel/sit/down
4. Send the dog at least 30' for a bite
5. Out and guard as well as out and return to handler
6. Call-off from the bite/sit/down/return to handler

The reason I like to see the send to bite taught is so that the out from a distance and call-off can be taught. They cannot be taught without it, and not all dogs will generalize which CAN cause problems if you want your dog to ever STOP biting and you're not within 5' leash distance. If you don't do the above, don't start at all.

Now, MANY people go further, adding multiple attackers, distractions, environmentals and vehicle work. You can do that too if you like, but the above is the bare-bones basics the dog should know. IMO.

Any other questions, don't hesitate to ask. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Judy,

Also, as far as sociability goes, it is GREAT your dog is social. He is a pet. I do not raise my dogs to be social. They are always to tolerate people, but are never to embrace them (even family members) and are to treat them from a very young age as neutral fixtures in daily life. Easier said than done living in a big city, but I manage.

My trade-off is that my dogs cannot be "babysat" and I must plan my trips accordingly. I board at facilities that handle security dogs and are therefore prepared in the event the dog challenges them (as a good dog should challenge a stranger yanking them around). My dogs are not left with, fed by, played with or walked by strangers. My dogs are not left at the vet. If I have to take a dog in for an operation, I take time off work and am there when the dog goes under and there when he wakes up. My clinic has a sign up "no security-trained dogs without handler beyond this point" and so naturally honour and respect this. But it costs me lost wages on top of any vet bill.

My dogs have never bitten anyone, and have never given me cause for concern. But when you protection-train a dog with the genetic predisposition to aggression against a human, you take certain risks and make certain sacrifices.

I do not believe you want one of my dogs. Don't let anyone tell you your dog isn't good enough for you or for what you want to do. There are a lot of people that would not own a dog like yours... But there are JUST as many people that would give their right arm for a dog that DIDN'T jump on top of their head, barking and slobbering all over themselves at 80 mph going down the interstate because he saw a person (God forbid) standing on the side of the road... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

DO NOT teach your dog to be aggressive in the car. TRUST me on this one. You are lucky. And you do not WANT your dog to be aggressive in the car. Now, you can teach your dog to bite on leash from the car... But don't start encouraging displays of aggression in the car. For some reason it QUICKLY becomes a problem for most people to handle, and they wish they never taught it in the first place. Think about it... Would you have WANTED your dog to bite the idiots that pet him uninvited? My guess is no... If he had, as many many many dogs would have, you'd be in court defending your dog and would (best case) have to muzzle him from now on. And if someone ever assaulted you in the car or through the window, the dog's bite command would work in there too with training. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Protection work will start to create natural suspicion in just about any dog, so do watch for that in yours. It's really unavoidable. But your dog doesn't seem to have the genetic make-up to become a terror.

Couple of things: So many posts have been written since my last, I hope THIS doesn't cause more confusion, BUT- I was not saying in any way that training was going to make this dog unstable. If I even implied that, I apologize. I was saying that training to a POINT, and then stopping, MAY cause the dog some confusion if pushed beyond the point at which his training ended (Holy %^$&, Mom! This guy isn't running away! What do I do?!?). Normal people DO avoid a dog attack; psychos may not.

Who is Madelyn? Is she training this dog, or did she just evaluate him? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Further, I still say any dog will bite. Saying that they won't is like saying there are people in this world who do not get angry-ever. We're talking about a difference in thresholds and limits-not whether they bite or not. All dogs, like all people, have limits. "Bite inhibition" only goes to a point *beneath* the dog's threshold. Not saying I agree with pushing a dog to this point, just saying that this point exists. I'd be very curious to hear which breeds don't have this <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />.

Connie, I understood the law the same way. I don't see a big problem with it if one doesn't send their dog at an innocent person strolling through a park. Reminds me of the saying that if you shoot someone, drag their body into your house <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

Judy? Confused yet/again? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Hope not. You'll be fine. Just hook up with the RIGHT trainer.

Jennifer-apology accepted! Again I agree in large part w/your comments. I definately favor joining a club for her. My club is very reasonable and runs 2x/wk, pay yearly dues is all. Great training, people and dogs and objective advice in everyones best interest.
I think she needs to decide w/a good trainer what she wants, and go from there. I like a protective dog in the car and again encourage it. I take my dog all over and collect rents etc, I also pack at these times. Mine is probably scarier looking than a GSD. Picture a Braun Giant Schnauzer/Bouvier-lots of facial hair and teeth,sort of Werewolf of London.
There are arguments before/against training to increased levels, but ultimately the owner must decide what theyre comfort level is and what the dog is capable of doing. I havent regreted taking part in SCH one bit, and I was very concerned initially.