Quote: sandy moore

Carbon does look very happy while going through the paces. That of course is cause of you.

HA! Much as I'd like to take credit for it...his happiness with the training is in direct correlation to his spastic love of the ball reward!

Actually, he's loved obedience from the beginning. He seems to love using his mind. That's why I started obedience so young with him. I planned on watching his maturity levels and taking it from there, but honestly, from about 10 weeks he was in love with working. And since I got him at a time when the weather was crappy...the indoor obedience really kept him from being a total nut-ball from boredom.

The truth that some trainers won't let you in on: A really smart and driven dog will make you look like a much better trainer than you actually are!

 Quote: sandy moore

My last dog knew how to back up, but she was taught that by someone else, although she responded to me when I said "back". Can you share how you taught it?

With many driven, high energy dogs (like Carbon)...they will automatically back up when they're excited and unsure of what you're asking of them. Labelling and rewarding is all that's really necessary in this case. The footage I had of this was unusable, but Carbon will now back up to three times as far away as he was in the video, his whole body trembling with excitement waiting for the ball. LOVE that dog.

With other dogs that didn't have quite the same...zest...I have trained them to back up (this is the simple explanation) by "crowding" them.

**IMPORATANT WORD OF CAUTION: You have to watch your body language and take into consideration the dog's natural temperament because you don't want to accidentally worry them by doing this. Make sure your stance isn't threatening. Just casually walk up very close to their front, not staring at them, like you don't even notice they're there. Then give a five star reward and freak out with praise. It's not actually a hard trick for a dog to learn, IME, but I would NEVER do it this way with a dog with defensive or aggressive tendencies. There are other, safer ways, that take longer but are still effective. I wouldn't do it with a very submissive, easily worried dog (like those famous submissive urinators) because you want the trick to be fun for the dog, not scary. Also, a really submissive dog might just roll over instead of backing up if the trainer's body language is too aggressive. This method is mostly geared for dogs that really trust their handlers, and are fun-loving.**

Most dogs will automatically back up if you walk up to them and stand directly in front of their nose, almost touching. It's a natural response, even in people. Who hasn't had a "close talker" that always makes you back up when they get too close? Even if the dog only backs up a step, reward, praise and eventually label. But again, be mindful of your body language because think how you would feel if that "close talker" stalked over to you rapidly, with narrowed eyes...looking pissed off! Then you might do more than just back up!

 Quote: yuko blum

I'm nowhere near as graceful in my handling/training skills as you are

First of all, there is NO way I was graceful in that video! That's why I put in all the disclaimers about that footage being informal...so no one would think I normally run around like a drunken sailer when working my dog! From what I know of you--I have a feeling that you're likely being waaaaaay too modest here!

 Quote: yuko blum

Do you have a version of him going through his paces without the music? I'd love to hear the commands as they're given as well as what his bark sounds like

Actually, my camera isn't a video camera...it's just a digital camera that takes film shots. Unfortunately, it doesn't record sound. I do have a video camera, with lots of good footage of Carbs on it, but I can't figure out how to transfer that to the computer.

Also, I train Carbs with voice commands because of distance work, or when he's out of sight, but most of the stuff you saw on that vid didn't include voice commands.

He's always learned more quicklyy if I labeled with hand commands FIRST and then add voice commands afterwords---the complete opposite of how most trainers I know do it. This never made sense to me because canines more readily notice physical over verbal communication. Just my observation, and what I've had most success with.

Thanks all for your really nice words. I know we have a lot of work ahead of us, but I am enjoying every damn minute of it. It's so nice to have a group of people to share this stuff with because most people in my life don't get the work that goes into training dogs, or my devotion to it, or don't understand why I think he's such a cool dog to train. I appreciate your comments...and that you "get it." Warm fuzzies.

 Quote: amber morgan

Most dogs will automatically back up if you walk up to them and stand directly in front of their nose, almost touching. It's a natural response, even in people.

Amber's right on with this one! I taught Oscar to "back-up" in just this way when I was trying to stop him fom squeezing through doorways in front of me. As soon as he'd shove his nose past my knee I'd gently step backwards and into him saying "back up". He'd take a step or too back, and then lots of praise or a treat. He still gets excited some times and stands RIGHT behind me when I'm at the door, but I don't have to walk into him anymore, I just say the words and he moves back and waits. Looking back - should have taught him to sit and wait before I even touched the door knob... but at the time, with my goofball of a big puppy, this worked - and it's still pretty handy.

Thanks for the great explanation Amber!

~Natalya

Thanks Amber! Another fun thing to teach

Great explanation on training the back-up, Amber. Thanks!

I love how much thought you put into your replies. I always prefer having the reasons for a particular training method explained (in detailed, lol) instead of just a "do this, do that".

I'll try it out with my dogs and see how it goes.

I also like your thinking on teaching the hand signals and body cues before the voice commands. I've never been big on hand signals for commands before - as I said, I'm not as coordinated and graceful as you are (protest all you will ) so I'm worried that I'll just confuse my dogs by spazzing around.

Years ago at obedience classes, the hand signal commands were just that, hand signals. All the moves were very static and restricted to the hand or arm.

I noticed how Carbon responds to your entire body language and how fluid and natural your movements are. It definitely looks more graceful than the usual hand gestures that are taught at local obedience classes

Thanks for motivating me, I'll see if I can manage your style of training with my dogs (hopefully without confusing them too much, lol).

Oh and I can definitely appreciate your appreciation of our appreciation of your training accomplishments with your dog

Family members often don't get it (or aren't interested in getting it). My family members used to do horrible things when giving obedience commands to my dogs; such as saying "down" and praising when the dog sits instead... or repeating "come" a hundred times when the dog's off leash and then not bothering to enforce the command when the dog merrily ignores them... or better yet, grabbing a prey item from the dog's mouth and shouting "drop it! drop it! drop it!!" while wrestling the item out of the dog's mouth, effectively undoing months of my careful Flinks' style calm grip training...

I've protested and lectured enough that this type of transgression has now stopped, and my family is now nicely trained in dog-handling procedures. It was a frustrating process though

The best way to get appreciation for all your hard dog work is to go to a local dog park and train away in a quiet spot. Crowds of dog owners never fail to gather and stare in awe as your dog actually does what you ask and does it with FLAIR and ENTHUSIASM

(This is usually when I try to speak out a few words of support and education for the poor misunderstood prong collars. "See? My dog is wearing a prong collar and look how happy he is! He doesn't think it's a torture device!" lol)

amber, i am SOOOO jealous of you and carbs....my charlie murphy is more of a clown...but that just goes to show the difference between the bloodlines of american show bred dogs and the working class like you have...

my boy LOVES food rewards...his food drive is high, and he is almost identical to Carbon in that part of the video, very interested when it comes to treats...

my boy is just over 6mos old now, and i could only hope to have him at such a level...

now that my work schedule is cooling off and i have hired more help, i am starting to work with him more again...

what i am MOST impressed by is Carbs' heeling...i guess...like a lot of the kraftwerk dogs i have seen videos on, he is pretty much spot on with his heeling...(i guess that's what you call it)....i love how the dogs stick to your left side and will move there on command...

any tips for a rookie? i am still in the beginning processes of teh basic obedience video...so, we are working through that together.....

again...awesome dog....

Yes, the heeling was amazing to me! It seems he was doing this very young for his age. Please pass some pointers because this is what I will be working on next.

 Quote: yuko blum

I noticed how Carbon responds to your entire body language.

I know there are standard hand signals that are given to dogs when using hand signals. I use some of them, if they make sense to me. But in general, they're just a slight hint of the same movement my body made when I started teaching him the command.

For example, in Carbon's case, the finish was done just by luring him with a piece of food (starting at 13 or 14 weeks or something) behind me and ending at my side. My body naturally twisted like that when training, so it made more sense to use that as a signal since he already recognized it...rather than institute something foreign.

Here's a link to Carb's sire, Ursus (click on obedience under his picture):
http://www.kraftwerkk9.com/dogs_at_stud.php

After I got started training Carbon the finish, I went back and watched Ursus' video and noticed that his handler/owner Wayne Curry does the same sort of body twist to command a finish. Don't know if he trained it the same way, but it was interesting to notice that similarity.

Also, for those of you asking about the heeling...in the same video of Ursus: during the heel, you'll notice that Wayne holds his hands as if he has something in them. I do this, too, although I don't think that's in my video since that wasn't the formal footage.

The reason I do it (I have no idea if this is the same for Wayne) is because in order to fully motivate Carbs for the formal heel I had to have his favorite reward. He's a "show me the money" kind o' dog. So, I'd have to be holding the ball.

Eventually, I could make him perform the heel just by looking like I was holding a ball. Another example of hand commands that mimic the body posture that happened when initially training. The path of least resistance, I think, has the best results. Why ask the dog to learn to understand the command AND human language at the same time? You can add the language later.

Here's the thing: I have never gone to an obedience class with a dog...ever...until after I had been training dogs for a long time and wanted to learn the rules so that I could help my clients title their dogs in AKC (which is all that's available to us here). I simply didn't have the money.

What I learned, I actually learned from trial and error, and especially: my grandfather's journals who died before I was born. He was a local celebrity with dogs (who never charged for his services) and his journals were more about how to read the individual dog. There were no step by step rules on how to teach a command. It was pages and pages of how to watch dogs and how to learn to communicate to them. More of a way to think about training rather than specific training techniques.

I realize I've slipped into the (wordy) philosophical here, but I do want to say that I think that a big problem that I see in dog training is that since there are so many training books out there...many people focus TOO much on following the book, and as a result completely become blind to the individual dog's communication, learning style, energy level, comfort level, intelligence, particular motivations, breed strengths, etc.

Lots of people, without realizing it, view the books as owner's manuals that came with their dog-shaped robots. And then get really frustrated when their robot doesn't perform like the robot in the manual.

I am the first to admit that I devour dog training books. Seriously...it's like mental chocolate to me. But, I view them as things that HAVE worked, not as things that WILL ALWAYS work. Some things even work most of the time. Different dogs...different styles. If something doesn't work, try something else. But the best thing is to pay attention to your dog instead of only insisting that they pay attention to you.

This is one of the reasons I love this board. So many people here really think and don't just parrot.

It's fun to think outside of the box and try to figure out how to get your dog to do something. That's how the first ever successful trainers did it, after all.

 Quote: yuko blum

Thanks for motivating me, I'll see if I can manage your style of training with my dogs (hopefully without confusing them too much, lol).

Hey, if it ain't broke, don't fix it! From what it sounds like, your style is working really well!

Too. Much. Writing. Must. Take. Nap.